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A Very Unique Situation of Delusional Disorder of Persecution by Friends Type (DDP)

 

To date, it seems that there are relatively very few large scale scientific studies and reports on Delusional Disorder (DD). This is because there are very few DD inpatients in the psychiatric hospital, only about 2-5%. But, the number of people with DD could be large in the world as seen in the Delusional Disorder Forum (http://www.psychforums.com:80/delusional-disorder/).

 
     All the passages below are taken from the Delusional Disorder Forum and was initiated by MrSicily from Oct 2009 to Oct 2013

 

1. Very Unique Situation

by MrSicily » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:06 am

I am truly glad I found this forum! I actually think I have a unique situation with DD\mental illness –one that is so out of this world, I can't hardly believe it, and you might not either.

Here is the bottom line: my wife and I have eight beautiful children, the oldest being 15 all the way down to our youngest, just-turned-three. My oldest, a very dear boy, Josh, had a severe psychotic episode in July, which ended up with him staying in three different inpatient facilities over the course of three months. This wasn't so fun for any of us, needless to say.

During this time my dear wife of 15 years started to become much more delusional than I had ever known her. She has always put things together in an interesting way, and I could usually kid her about what she said and usually she would accept it, but this time it was much more severe. She believed (and still does) that Thomas, a good friend of the family, who hired Josh to work in his business and was very kind to him in every way – this good friend had smoked pot with Josh and sexually molested him, thus his psychosis. There were other crazy ideas also (like, the anti psychotics were causing the psychosis) but she kept returning to Thomas. I told her I would accept this conclusion, but I just needed some evidence, any evidence. There was none, just how Thomas looked at Josh etc. Trash. On two occasions I asked Josh about these charges when she was there -- he said they were not true – and a clinician also asked Josh in her presence, and Josh said they were not true etc. A psychiatrist talked to Josh about this for a long time, and he said Thomas had been a great person in his life. No amount of reality will change her conclusions.

Oh, by the way, Thomas's wife, when they got married, was pregnant, because she had put on some weight. Crazy. She would have to be five months pregnant to show and then get a late term abortion. Ok, maybe that happened, but where is the evidence, I wondered At the shower, some people were talking about Thomas's wife's loss...ok?

You would think that this would be enough – a psychotic son and a wife with DD – but there is more to this situation. As I mentioned, we have eight children, and two years ago I got the second worse cancer in the US, Esophageal Cancer. I had a huge operation and intense chemo and radiation, and so far I've been clear of cancer. Hallelujah! I'm 48 now, and who knows if the cancer will come back. If it comes back, I'm dead.

She doesn't sound as bad as other DD spouses on this forum, but she has gone downhill in the last three months and could continue this slide. What is hanging in the balance is eight children. Also, not only do I have a wife with DD to handle, but also a son who is recovering from a psychosis (and far from 100 percent) and the care of the other seven children, plus just trying to take care of myself. (Oh, did I mention that she believes that Josh never had a psychosis, the doctors overdosed him when in fact he had a side effect to Risperdal, that the doctors were using Josh as a guinea pig with the medications and treating him like a specimen etc.)

Along the way with Josh's condition, I have talked to many psychiatrists\psychologists who have experienced my wife, and they all agree she has DD. 

What makes this even more interesting is that as a team, me and my wife, who is DD, have to make decisions for Josh. She doesn't want him to be on any medications, but I have said he will be on them. I have had to sit through her crazy Thomas story about five times, as she told each doctor (because Josh had been at different facilities and doctor's went on vacation) about how they had smoked pot together and he molested him. 

I hope she doesn't get worse. I hope I don't die. I hope Josh gets better. I do not want a divorce. I love her, but have to be careful what I say, as she will twist it. Even simple things come back to haunt me: long story, but a doctor in Norway (where his psychosis happened) gave Josh 2 mg of risperdol to maybe help him one night; it didn't. The next day, he was as psychotic as ever, and we had to admit him to the hospital. Ok, what's wrong with telling her that? Well, Josh was never psychotic – the risperdol made him psychotic, and that's why I had to admit him. Oh boy.

I almost don't know what to say to her. It's easy to get into a fight. It doesn't help that her entire personality is on psychiatric quick sand. She was very badly sexually abused as a child and, in general, had an awful childhood, so if I question her on her delusions or much else, she takes it poorly: that I don't think she is worth anything, everyone hates her, I think she doesn't have a brain and so forth. Regarding Thomas she can get quite upset and angry also. She's a real mess, between her awful upbringing and her DD. 

But there is something very good about her deep down, and I love her very much. It's just all this DD stuff that makes it bad. Sometimes she's better, sometimes worse. Oh, the best one is when she told Josh, who is still very much recovering, that “if you come into the light about Thomas, then God will heal you of your psychosis.” I can't think of a worse thing to say. But what shall I do?

I have thought to get her to a doctor and see if they could diagnose her with DD just in case she gets worse and there is, God forbid, a divorce. I would want to get the children. Does anyone know anything about this?

Thanks for listening....
MrSicily

 

Re: Very Unique Situation

by lovemyhubby » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:50 am

 

MrSicily,
           I am so sorry for all that you're going through! I am so thankful that my husband and I don't have any children. I can only imagine how tough it is. And now to have a sick son...Some people say that these conditions can be genetic. How are your other children? The ones that are old enough to understand, do you think they do? How do they handle their mother?

Does anyone have any idea of what triggered Josh's psychosis?

Do you think there's ANY possibility that Thomas did anything to Josh?

You need to make sure you take care of yourself first and foremost! If you're healthy and strong, you'll be better able to handle your tough situation...It takes a lot of strength to live the life we live with a family member suffering from a mental illness.

My husband had a tough childhood as well. He was one of several children, and had an abusive father. Finally at 28 he left home and came to Canada. Sadly while he was here, his mom passed away and he couldn't go back home for the funeral. So I'm thinking all that contributed to his DD surfacing. 

And I totally understand how you feel about her. I love my husband more than anything. Sometimes I wish I didn't love him as much as I do. Our life together is certainly challenging and we take it one day at a time. Again, we don't have children so it's probably easier for us than it is for you. 

So you haven't tried getting her to a doctor yet? I tried everything in my power to get him to get help. But he's in total denial. Finally, sadly, I had to have him put into the hospital. THAT was the WORST day of my life...Do you think she'll go to a doctor? Does she know she's ill?

I wish you all the best...please keep writing and let us know how things go for you.
     lovemyhubby

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lizzy » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:53 am

            I am very sorry to hear about your wife and son. It sounds like your wife had a terrible childhood and is still suffering from it. I hope you are able to convince her to see a psychiatrist. My husband is on risperidal. It is something that takes time to work, it is supposed to work right away and is also supposed to build up in your system. If she is taking the right med maybe it will help her think more clearly so that she can stop having delusions. It helped my husband. I hope things get better for you soon.

lizzy

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by MrSicily » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:20 pm

              Thanks for the replys. It's really nice to know that others are going through the same thing as me...I am not alone!

I should mention that the DD has always been there throughout the 15 years of marriage, but just at a real low level and when we didn't have a lot of stress in our lives. Like when our alternator broke on our car, and she thought the neighbor had come over in the night and broke it. Or when our pool pump died, the same. I actually didn't realize she had a problem until recently but, looking back, it's always been there in some form or another.

Along these lines, I really didn't believe her about Thomas, but I did say I was willing to believe her, I just wanted some evidence. I haven't found any, just the opposite: his name has been cleared many times in many ways, yet she will not believe it. It's as if she has this reality in spite of any facts.

I find myself in a bind when she starts talking like this: I can't agree with it but I also can't disagree with it. I can't agree with it because then if follows logically that Josh could never be with Thomas, which I think is not right. He needs Thomas now, and Thomas has been a good friend. But I can't disagree, since everything I've read says this is not the best course of action with someone with DD. The worse is to get into a crazy back and forth where she says the most ridiculous things...it turns into not even a rational discussion. When you can believe anything, it really doesn't matter what you say; you're always right. So I avoid these discussions.

Finally, one last thing if I could. Hitler had the idea of the big lie: say a big lie long enough, and people will eventually believe it. When I was quiet with her, not opposing her, I didn't believe a word she said. But when I saw Thomas later on, who is a dear person to us, I found I had somehow internalized some of her crazy ideas, even though I didn't want to. Has anyone else had it like this? I think as people we are prone to poor ideas about the others; if she believe the FBI was tapping our phone, that would be one thing. But this idea is more in the realm of possibility. What I'm trying to say is, I have to gingerly oppose her in her in her ideas lest I end up as crazy as her.

Does any of this make sense? What an interesting place to be in one's life. I thought cancer was a big deal, but this trumps even that. It sure is interesting where God takes us in our life. But here we are. 

Sorry I'm so long in this post...didn't mean to be.

MrSicily

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lizzy » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:01 pm

              I have the same problem. When my husband was delusional he would obsess about relatives and how rude and offensive they were to him. I started to have negative feelings about them and stopped interactiving with them. I didn’t think that they were trying to be rude to him, I just thought that he had misread them, but I still didn’t want to have anything to do with them.

I think its normal for you to feel that way towards Thomas, but if he is a good friend I think that whenever you start to have a negative feeling about him you should remember all the good experiences you had with him. I don’t think you should argue with your wife about him, but you don’t have to agree with what she says. Her interpretation of him is very real to her and you probably cant change that. 

Has she agreed to see a psychiatrist? You could also trying contacting a psychiatrist and ask him what you should do. I actually tricked my husband into going to the hospital because I thought he could have a brain tumor. I don’t recommend doing that, but I definitely think that she could benefit from some therapy whether it be meds or CBT or psychotherapy. My husband’s meds have helped him think more clear.

I hope that helps. My husband's condition sounds very familiar to your wife's. You are not alone. Good Luck.

lizzy

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lovemyhubby » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:51 am

                 You are definitely not alone! We're all here to help each other...

We go through the same thing. When "normal" things happen like the cable going out or something stops working like it should, it's a "mystery"...and I've learned not to argue or contradict. It only leads to a fight and it reminds him of how I feel about his situation and I don't want to do that. He's going through a tough enough time without my doubts. 

When he was in the hospital, the doctors told me that if he would just take some meds, he'd get some clarity and could probably get over his condition. How I wish that that would happen. But I don't live my life wishing and hoping. I just enjoy every day that we've got together.

I have never been able to "believe" my husband's ideas as they are just too out of this world. For me the hardest part is watching him live in this world of conspiracy. I can only imagine how hard it is for him, with everyone watching and listening and following. 

Yes, it all makes sense, believe me. And you're right about this being an interesting place. Here I am, at 42, married to a man that makes me happier than anyone ever has, but we have to deal with this. I often wonder, why? Why me? Why us? But I'm a strong believer in fate and destiny. We all have choices and I chose to stay with my husband. We were brought together, me from Canada, he from Central America...there must be a reason.

lovemyhubby

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by Sadwife » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:11 pm

Hi-
           I am new here and going through the same thing. I feel as though I am reading about my own life when I read everyone else's situations. My husband had his first psychotic break almost 3 years ago.

He has since had 2 major relapses. One after a year and a half but he had gone off his meds. Then this past summer, in August, he had another. He has been hospitalized twice since August with the last hospitalization being for over a month. In his delusion it has always been about the FBI or Al Queada watching him or being after him. However, this last time, I have become part of the delusion which has really scared the hell out of me. I left him a week ago, because I was very afraid and took out child. I am back home now to keep some normalcy in our child's life with school and activities and he is staying with his parents. I feel like he is a total stranger to me. We saw him last night at his parents for dinner and he was wonderful with our child, but with me, he was not so warm. His stories keep changing...he thinks I am part of the mafia, he thinks I had an affair, he thinks the mafia is after me and that's why I left, etc. Yesterday was our 6 year anniversary and it was a completely heart breaking day for me.

I want him to be well so we can put our family back together, but I don't know if it will ever last. Can he get past his fears and delusions? I was never so afraid before of his illness but I am now because I have become part of it. It is very scary and I feel so alone. Thanks for listening.

Sadwife

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lizzy » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:04 pm

Hi Sadwife,
           Is your husband in therapy. I've read that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is good for people with dd. I also read that most people with dd are suspicious of therapy and meds so that makes it really hard for them to recover and prevent relapses. 

My husband is on meds and has been delusion free for over a month. He says that he has a lot of fears which he thinks causes his delusions. When he is overwhelmed or scared about something it’s like his mind wont rest. He is currently worried about finances so he is also becoming more worried about my safety when I'm driving alone. 

It’s hard because I just want a normal life like everyone else. I'm tired of being scared about him having a relapse and having to think about meds and psychiatrists and therapy, but I love my husband and can’t imagine life without him. He is trying hard and doing all of the right things to prevent a relapse. I don’t think I will be able to stay with him if he has another one so I'm trying my best to help him and I stay healthy.

When my husband had his psychotic break his delusions also included me so I know how you feel. It’s good that he is able to stay with his parents so that you can have some relief. I hope things improve soon.

lizzy

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by Sadwife » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:37 pm

HI LIzzy-
            Yes my husband is currently in therapy. He is in an outpatient hospital program, one of the best in the country, so I should have some relief knowing that.

I think he is definitely trying to turn his life around, as he mom told me he was actually exercising last night! I can never get him to exercise and I know that is so good for your mental health! Hopefully, he realizes he needs to find healthy ways to release stress and nervous energy. He is accepting of taking his meds and working well with the therapist and doctors in the outpatient program he is in. I just wish I hadn't become part of his delusion this time, as I would not feel so apprehensive.

I know that he can work through this and get on the right track to recovery; it's the maintaining it and not relapsing scares me. When he started to get sick this summer, I thought I really caught it early on and was proactive in getting him into his therapist 3 times in one week to have therapy and we also saw the dr who adjusted his meds, but then he just spiraled downhill overnight.

It is difficult with a child because I want her to have a "normal" upbringing and not see her dad in and out of hospitalizations. She is very sensitive and I don't want her to become a "worrier" like dad, only because I am so concerned for her health and mental stability. Right now we are in a one day at a time mode and can't look too far into the future. That is kind of rough on me because I am a planner! I just have to have faith that somehow this will all work out and he is getting the help he needs. It just may be slow progress.

Sadwife

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lizzy » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:18 pm

             That’s great that he's in an outpatient therapy group! Last April during my husband's breakdown he was admitted into a really good program, but then at the last minute his insurance decided not to pay even though they said they would so you guys are really lucky. It sounds like he is getting the help he needs to recover.

What causes people with dd to have relapses?? Stress, meds, chemical imbalances ???

 

Re: Very Unique Situation

by Sadwife » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:05 am

          We are lucky our insurance is paying for the outpatient. They only approve 5 days at a time. He has been there 2 weeks. Tomorrow we will find out if they can get another 5 days out of the insurance. He actually hasn't made much progress so the doctors REALLY want him to come back next week, but they said it may be tough to get it by insurance. His mom is considering paying for it out of pocket if the insurance won't cover it. He really really needs intensive therapy. He can't go from an everyday thing to once a week. It won't be enough and he isn't well enough to return to work, so we are all very worried about him declining if he doesn't have a program to go to. We'll see.

In my husband’s case, his relapses seem to be due to stress. When he is stressed, he has sleep issues, and then he worries about whatever is on his mind (usually work issues), then the worries become obsessive and then his thoughts get all distorted like "they are out to fire me"...meanwhile he has never had a warning or poor performance review. It is a never ending cycle of worry, lack of sleep, stress, etc. and then he declines so suddenly. He does a really good job of containing it (or hiding it) and then it explodes into a full out psychotic episode which lands him in the hospital. 

It is very devastating and what he doesn't know if that not only is it destroying him but also me, our daughter, our family, his parents. This illness is very devastating as I feel like it is destroying everything in its path. I feel like I am drowning and being pulled down by someone else trying to cling to me as they drown. I wake up every morning with a knot in my stomach and wonder how I am going to face the day. I am surprised I haven't ended up next to him in the hospital. I guess I am stronger than I think, but I can feel the weight I am carrying. I feel so emotionally and physically tired and need to just have someone take care of me for a change.

Sadwife

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lovemyhubby » Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:08 am

            It's so interesting how there are so many different living conditions with the same illness. In our case, my husband doesn't have "relapses" as such. He can basically live, work, and conduct himself on a normal basis. Our main problem is he can't hold a job for more than 2 months or so, is off work for several months, and while he's home, that's when things get challenging. With everyone watching and listening, he feels the need to respond so he can let them know he knows they're watching and listening and they're not going to get to him. He also feels that "they" are preventing him from finding another job. So that's our viscous circle. 

He'll never seek help or go on medication because that's how they will get to him and control his mind. 

A couple of times he has accused me of being "one of them" but that passes. But he continues to believe my friends and family are involved. And I don't think that will ever change. 

It really IS a devastating and emotionally and physically draining illness to deal with. I consider myself lucky in the sense that we love each other so much and he knows I'm doing my best to support him. And I AM doing my best. There are days that it just totally gets to me and I get frustrated and down but eventually I pick myself up and just try to keep going. 

Also, I know that if ever something happened to me, he'd be right there by my side, helping any way he can. So I do the same for him...

lovemyhubby

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lizzy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:53 pm

             My husband's situation is similar to sadwife's husband's. My husband worries constantly about either work or finances. He becomes obsessed with his thoughts and then he ends up distorting what is really happening. Even when he doesn’t have anything to worry about he always finds something to worry about. It is like he is addicted to worrying! 

He is doing better on his meds. They help him think more clearly as he is able to intensify when his ideas are getting out of control and are no longer real. 

Sadwife and lovemyhubby, is there anything that helps your husbands not to worry so much?

lizzy

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by Sadwife » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:36 pm

             My husband seemed to be responding to therapy and his meds of course helped in the past. I also took on most of the household burdens to decrease his stress. I took over the finances over a year and a half ago. His only true stress to manage was work and apparently that has become too much.

He had a major relapse in August and has had 2 hospitalizations since then. 10 days in August, then 4 weeks in Sept. Since his last hospitalization he has been in an outpatient program for the past 2 weeks. However, his paranoia has not decreased any and they still adjusting his meds...took him off Haldol and Zoloft. Put him on Risperdal and now Moban. 

His paranoia has increased and currently he is in the ER as of this morning and in the process of being transferred to a psychiatric hospital in our area. His dad has now become part of the paranoia. It just seems to be getting worse and I am feeling real despair. He also told the EMT he wanted to kill himself. He has never been suicidal before or made statements like that. I am so worried and feel so alone. This is destroying me and I have my 5 year old daughter to think about.

Sadwife

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lizzy » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:37 am

             Sadwife, I'm sorry to hear about your husband. I remember how very hard it was for me when my husband was in the ER a few months ago. He was so confused and I was unable to help him understand that his fears were not real. We also didn’t have any family in the area so that really made it hard. I'm sorry about all of this. I think that the spouse of the person with dd has it the hardest. I saw a therapist during my husband's breakdown and that helped me. I can’t say anything to make it better, but I hope things will improve soon.

lizzy

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lovemyhubby » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:34 am

          Oh Sadwife, I'm so sorry! I can't even imagine what you're going through!!! It's times like this I wish people in our situation had physical contact...sometimes a hug helps. 

I basically take care of everything too. And I do whatever I can to take any burden from my husband. Unfortunately at times I get frustrated with him and get resentful that I'm doing everything. But in time that passes. 

I wonder if his relapses are due to the change in medication. Obviously they can't find the right one for him but maybe the constant change and adjusting is doing more harm than good. Poor guy must be so mixed up...

If I may ask, how did he end up in the ER? 

Sadwife, you must do what it takes to keep your strength up, but more for yourself and your daughter! You need to take care of yourself first! It's hard, I know, because you want to take care of and protect your husband but you can't do that if you let yourself go. I feel so sad for you...my husband was in the hospital only once and that was my doing. I had him put there. He was in for a month and completely refused any meds or psychiatric help. I had to meet with the board to try to convince them to force meds on him and he won the case. Because I wouldn't lie to the board saying he was a danger to himself or someone else, they wouldn't force meds on him and released him. So at that point I promised him I'd never do that again but if ever it got to that point again, we would be finished. I told him that I wouldn't go through that again. But I didn't have any children to think about, it was just me and him. 

Where is your husband now? 

Are you at home alone with your daughter? What family and friends do you have to talk to?

My thoughts are with you...stay strong...

lovemyhubby

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lovemyhubby » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:41 am

lizzy wrote:Sadwife and lovemyhubby, is there anything that helps your husbands not to worry so much?


My husband doesn't really worry...in fact he tells me that I'm addicted to worrying...LOL!

His problem is he becomes so consumed by his paranoia, feeling like he has to respond to those listening and watching, letting them know that he knows they're listening and watching and letting them know that they're not going to get to him. So he sends messages like flashing lights and knocking on things. He'll play certain songs on his computer and put certain things on tv, either programming or dvds. So he doesn't worry, he just lives fighting "them" all the time.

lovemyhubby

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by Sadwife » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:04 pm

lovemyhubby wrote: it's times like this I wish people in our situation had physical contact...sometimes a hug helps.


I agree a hug would help!!!! Especially from someone who is or has experienced a similar situation.

 

lovemyhubby wrote: If I may ask, how did he end up in the ER?


He ended up in the ER because he "had a stomach ache" and asked him mom to call 911. I think it was anxiety because he had discussed the previous day with his psychiatrist that it may be better for him to be hospitalized while they are adjusting his meds. He had sort of agreed to go back into the hospital today, but then he thought and worried about it all weekend to the point where he made himself sick yesterday. He ended up being admitted last evening. He had been staying with his parents and now his dad is part of the paranoia issue, much like me, so slowly he has alienated me and now his dad. His mom is currently the only person he is trustful of from the family. It's a rough situation. He was so good on Saturday when he visited with our daughter, according to my mother in law. I am sure it did break his heart though, as he did tell her that "daddy was probably going back to the hospital" I nearly cried when she told me.

Thankfully, my husband is willing to get help...we just need it to start working!!!!! The meds and all. He is there voluntarily and we really didn't want to go through the court system to have him committed. He actually wouldn’t even be committable as he is so put together and well spoken, and he isn't a danger to himself or anyone. Although, one of the EMTs that picked him up yesterday said that just after he got loaded in the ambulance, he told them that he "wanted to kill himself." He has never said anything like that before, not ever. So I am very worried about that, but according to my mother and father in law, the doctors don't believe him to be suicidal, it was more a psychotic statement he made. I don't know--it worries me terribly. I would hate for him to feel that desperate and for him to do something to himself and die and not know just how much I love him and that I have absolutely no harm intended for him. I can't even say what I am thinking; just that I fear his last thoughts of me being of fear and hate, rather than knowing that love I have for him.

 

lovemyhubby wrote: Are you at home alone with your daughter? What family and friends do you have to talk to?


I am home with my daughter and my in-laws live 10 minutes away. My parents are supportive and probably will be coming to stay with us for a bit in a few days. There live 2 hours away, but get in the car at the drop of a hat if need be. Thankfully, I have a wonderfully supportive family. Friends too, but I feel there is nothing better than family in times like these.

Weds. I am going back to meet with the therapist that I recently started seeing. I am hoping that brings me some relief and support. Knowing he is in the hospital is tough, but I know it is for the best. I hope he can get the help he needs and the right medicines to get his fear and paranoia to decrease. All I can do it keep praying.

Sadwife

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by lovemyhubby » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:45 am

Hi Sadwife,
           I'm sorry I haven't been able to write all week. I have been thinking about you, though.

How are you doing? How is your husband doing? Is he still in the hospital? How's your daughter?

I can't even imagine what you and your family must be going through. In one sense it's a good thing that he's so willing to take meds and get help, but on the other hand, it seems to stress him out so much. And that's got to be hard! And now he has to deal with his father being a part of his paranoia...That must be so hurtful for him thinking his family has turned against him. Do you know what has triggered his thinking his father is involved?

I truly, truly hope that he gets enough clarity that you can assure him of how much you love him and how much you want to help him. And hopefully he can see that his father is not involved. 

How did your meeting go on Wednesday? Will you be able to continue to see this therapist? Have you ever attended group support sessions?

My thoughts are with you and your family. Stay strong...

lovemyhubby

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by Sadwife » Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:00 am

               My husband is still in the hospital and the plan is for him to be released to his parents. As for his paranoia about his dad, it must have subsided, as he is being discharged to his parent’s house. Either is has subsided or his paranoia of me is just so great that he has no choice but to go to his parents. I know he is still paranoid about me and won't put my name on the hospital form for the doctors to be able to talk to me. Friday they had a family meeting with him and his parents about the plans for discharge on Monday. It is so frustrating getting the info second hand from his mother. The doctors feel like the root of his issue is serious depression which manifests itself into this delusional paranoid disorder. So, while treating him with anti psychotics, they are now going to try treating him for depression. Who knows what is right?!!!! I feel like it is a total guessing game.

My husband can show me absolutely no "affection" when he calls. He is calling here nightly to say goodnight to our daughter and every night I tell him that I am thinking about him, worried and that I love him. He has no response. It is so heartbreaking to tell the man you love that you love him and he greets you with silence. Tonight I questioned him on it and I said "are you unable to reciprocate how you feel?" or something like that. I think I said, "do you have any feelings for me?" I can't remember exactly what I said and his response was just pretty much blank. I feel like that gives me my answer, that if he can't tell me he loves me, then, it's over. I am trying to hold out hope and be positive, but I feel like his delusions that he has had of me (since September) are so deep and have irrevocably damaged the marriage. I just don't know and I can't even get a freaking professional opinion as the doctors can't tell me a bloody thing. I feel between a rock and a hard place. I feel trapped as I am back in school full time (after a job layoff last year-I am making a career change)-so I have no source of income other than to stay here and plus this is where my school is. I am handling everything with the house and finances and our daughter. He has no idea of how this is putting ALL of the stress on me. Lawn, fall clean up, etc. I have to do EVERYTHING with NO HELP. It makes me resentful. I know he is sick, but in a way, it is a very selfish sickness. Everything is egocentric----he can't think beyond himself or his fears to realize that he is letting his responsibilities slip away. I don't mean to sound bitter, but I am right now.

I feel like I am getting sick mentally myself. I feel so mentally drained and wiped out. I constantly feel as though I have huge boulders crushing my chest and making it extremely difficult to breathe. I go to bed with a stomach ache (knots in my stomach--anxiety I think) and then sleep for a few hours and then toss and turn all night. Then in the morning, I wake with a knot in my stomach and don't want to get up and face the day. I do, because of my daughter, but if it wasn't for her, I would be in bed. I am going to therapy and it is good to talk to an unbiased person. But of course, she can't tell me anything to make this nightmare and pain go away. I am thinking of scheduling an appointment this week with my primary care physician because I think I am struggling with some mild situational depression and bad anxiety. I think mostly it is over the uncertainty of the future. I hate the unknown.. .most people do....and right now, I can't even have an intelligent discussion with my husband about the future. It is so difficult with a child and a house / mortgage and responsibilities. He just doesn't have any insight to the fact that he is destroying everything and everyone around him.

 

Re: Very Unique Situation

by Sadwife » Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:34 am

lovemyhubby wrote:. 

How did your meeting go on Wednesday? Will you be able to continue to see this therapist? Have you ever attended group support sessions?

My thoughts are with you and your family. Stay strong...

                           lovemyhubby-


thanks for your thoughts. My meeting with my therapist went ok on Weds and I am going back this coming week as well and I also plan to see my doctor since I think I am starting to really suffer from anxiety and depression. We'll see what she says. I plan on continuing with the therapist. 

I haven't attended group support sessions but have thought about it. I think it would be really helpful, but haven't found any in my area yet. Plus it is hard as most support groups seem to be in the evenings and I don't really have anyone to leave my daughter with. I have my in-laws, but they are dealing with enough having my husband with them. I don't know...we'll see, I really should just find a group and then ask a friend or neighbor for help with my daughter. It's hard to ask for help; I have a tough time asking for it when I need it. But now is when I need it most, so I should just ask.

I have been even reluctant in calling my parents the last week as there is nothing they can say to make me feel better, and I hate to burden them with my stress and sorrow. I know it hurts them to see me hurt, so I have not been calling them as much. They called me tonight and I of course, cried and told them how awful I feel and that I fear I am getting major anxiety and some depression. They live 2 and 1/2 hours away and my mom was planning on coming Tuesday for a few days, but now both my mom and dad are going to come tomorrow and stay a few days and then go home and then head back here next weekend for a visit. Thankfully they are retired and don't have to worry about going to work or anything. They would drop everything for me, but again, I hate to ask. I feel terrible at 38 having to run to mommy and daddy to take care of me!!!! I used to be so independent. Now, being on my own scares me. I guess it is because I thought I found my life partner when I married my husband and we always imagined growing old together but now that dream seems to be fading. It is so painful. When I look at our wedding pictures, I see how happy he was and I feel like he has slowly become someone I don't recognize. The dreams we had are disappearing before my eyes and I can't even have a discussion with my husband right now. I don't know if he is even capable of thinking about the future.

Sadwife

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by leavingthedarkness » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:22 am

              Sadwife, I had the same "silent" treatment from my husband, after he moved out. Their hearts are in a cold and hard place that neither you nor I can reach. In my case, my husband still firmly believes that I have wronged him, so every time I confronted or requested his love, he answered with silence. He believes that I am this evil woman who manipulates everyone, including his own parents, the doctors, and friends to go against him. It is funny now I could say that I can almost understand how he feels. It is, unfortunately but ironically, very similar to how I used to feel. When I was accused by him, I felt like I had no place to turn, because no matter how hard I tried to "prove" myself, or to sway logics with him, he would not believe me. But I knew that I was innocent. In my battle with him to convince him that I was innocent, I often felt like I was talking to a WALL. In a way, he must feel the same way. No one believes him at all for any of the accusations that he "knows" about me, no matter how hard he tries. But he knows what I have "done" and is 1000% sure that I am guilty.(I am just too “good" and too "smart" for him to "catch" me or to find evidences) In his battle to tell people how he feels and knows, he feels absolutely isolated. I wonder if your husband feels the same way.

Going to your physician is an excellent idea. With some help for sleep and your anxiety, your body will react in a more positive way. For me, my survivor at the time was for my children. Now, it is for both me and my children.

I think asking help from friends is also a good idea. They don't really have to understand. In fact, no one but us, who live this kind of daily nightmares, understands the pain. But I believe if they are good people with good hearts, they will help. They cannot help you with your situation, but they can help you with your daughter (all my friends helped me by lending their ears.) Please remember, the worse that you will get, is back to where you are now, with no help; so please give it a try.

My thoughts are with you.

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To Mr. Sicily

by virginia star » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:13 am

            Please allow me a question? Is it possible that there has been some curious connection between Thomas and Josh that aroused the suspicion of your wife? It may be one of your wife's delusions, but a sensitive woman can sometimes discern something, usually unnoticed by ordinary people.

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Re: Very Unique Situation

by Beautiful Mind » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:06 pm

Dear lovemyhubby, 

 

I often wonder, why? Why me? Why us? But I'm a strong believer in fate and destiny. We all have choices and I chose to stay with my husband.


Your quote brings tears to my eyes.... I have asked myself these questions over and over again.... But when it came to choices, I can't say I had one... I say this because I was not alone... I had to consider my 4 daughters (infant to 10 years old), their safety, what they were being exposed to...etc... 

I remember asking one of the last doctors we worked with, "How can I help him? What's the best thing I can do for him?" her answer was, "separation or divorce." :cry: In my heart I wanted to stay with him... but in the end, I realized that would be selfish for me to do... especially since I was the root of his DD... having me around everyday would just remind him of how horrible "HE THOUGHT/BELIEVED" I was. His delusion was that I was having lesbian affairs, smoking pot, and a string of other ridiculous infidelities. 

The fighting between us was SO BAD for our children to witness. I'll never forget the look of fear and terror on their little faces. I began to fear that if I stayed, they would somehow think it is "normal" to stay in an abusive relationship. God forbid they would ever end up in a similar situation.... I couldn't bear them having to put up with such abusive insults and degrading mental behavior because "that's what mommy did". 

So in the end, my choice to leave was for the sake of my daughters. Please don't think I'm saying your choice was wrong in any way. I applaud your decision and hope the best for you!

Sincerely, Beautiful Mind

 

            ---------------------------------

 

2. Unique Situation - stress related...

by MrSicily » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:16 am

                Thanks everyone for the response to my last post. I find myself with a DD wife, eight children, a son who is recovering now from a severe psychotic episode and, if that wasn't enough, I myself am now recovering from the second worse cancer in the US, Esophageal Cancer, which I had two years ago.

I have a question about DD that you may or may not have an answer to. My wife has ups and downs, and a lot of the time she is good, but under stress her DD really comes out, though I believe it is always under the surface. She was sexually abused as a child and, not surprisingly, it turns out her delusions have to do with someone abusing our children. We have had another manifestation of this recently.

Question: if our life calms down and we have less stress, can I expect her to stay the same or even get better? She has already gotten better since our son came home; I really thought I was going to lose her when he was hospitalized. Or can I expect the DD to get worse regardless of the stress.

Obviously, no one knows the answer to this for sure, but can we say that in most cases it will stay the same if there is not a lot of new stress...or the opposite. Much hangs on this. I feel the family can continue with her as she is, but if she gets much worse, we will be in an entirely different situation. Much is hanging in the balance now (like eight children.) Any thoughts would be appreciated.

MrSicily

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Re: Unique Situation - stress related...

by Desperatehopeful » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:53 am

Hi Mr. Sicily,
             I'm glad your wife and son are doing better. In regards, to your question stress can trigger a psychotic episode. Delusions are usually fueled by the fear of the unknown and sometimes guilt. It is very important for people suffering from delusional disorder to learn how to manage their stress. This might be by meditating, exercising, or being involved with a hobby. They also need to feel comfortable to talk to someone they trust and express any thoughts that might be bothering them. The problems need to be resolved as soon as they arise so they don't spiral out of control. Cognitive Behavioral therapy is also very helpful. For many a long term anti-psychotic and anti depressant meds for maintenance is a necessity in preventing a relapse. 

I believe meds. are important especially, when a person is in a psychotic episode but meds alone will not prevent a relapse. A person is in recovery once they are symptom free and have insight of their past delusions and can rationalize them as false beliefs. The person also needs to accept that they are ill and want to get better. Once this happens, all of the above that was mentioned needs to be applied. It is a major lifestyle change but long-term recovery is possible.

We have changed our lifestyle and so far my husband is doing very well. After all, I believe we all need to learn how to deal with our stress and try to live healthier lives.

May God Bless you and your family .
good luck!

Desperatehopeful

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To Mr. Sicily

by virginia star » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:53 am

               Please Please do not drug her. You will going to ruin her brain, her mind and all the faculties of her that demonstrate her as a human being. She will become a vegetable, have her mouth watering, walk with a strange gait, and love you as a robot does. Please think again and learn more about the harmful effects of psychiatric medication by reading online articles, which you can find by yahoo search.

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Re: To Mr. Sicily

by Duff » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:49 am

virginia star wrote: Please Please do not drug her. You will going to ruin her brain, her mind and all the faculties of her that demonstrate her as a human being. She will become a vegetable, have her mouth watering, walk with a strange gait, and love you as a robot does. Please think again and learn more about the harmful effects of psychiatric medication by reading online articles, which you can find by yahoo search.


This is not always true. Psychotropic can be extremely helpful in psychotic symptoms (delusions especially). I was a delusional basket case for years until I was put on a therapeutic dose of an AAP. Yes they can be harmful for some, especially the people who can’t use them as described, for children who don’t need them, and for people who just take meds without reading.

To answer your question Mr, delusions can be triggered by stress. That is one of my main triggers (as for many people). Although yes, the less tress the less delusions, it’s hard to stay away from that trigger. I’m not saying its impossible, or that you need to put your wife in a bubble. It’s just that all stress manifestations can not be helped. But optimistically, yes, the less stress the less delusions.

Sincerely,
Duff

rx: haldol, trileptal, lamictal, klonopin, cymbalta

Duff

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To Duff and to Mr. Sicily

by virginia star » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:24 am

              Psychotropic drugs eliminate delusions or whatever term you like to describe someone being a bit imaginative, by damaging brain functions and dulling human feelings. One on medication will have a slowered brain, a mouth that waters, a pair of feet that do not correspond to the brain, a heart that does not feel, and some physical problems as well, for example some patients on medication have trouble urinating. Those patients will be given another medicine to help them urinate unnaturally. One loses creativity and talents after he/she takes medication, though he/ she will become manageable. 
Your wife may be unusual in some sense. She may be more imaginative from ordinary people or may have some thoughts that are far from the truth. Perhaps she fears something or angers about something. Knowing the cause and telling her the truth again and again about her current situation, which is safe, may offer some sort of help, I hope. 
Please do not drug her. She will suffer if you put her into medication, and that suffer can only lead to the destruction of a human mind

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Re: Unique Situation - stress related...

by Beautiful Mind » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:05 pm

Dear Partners in DD:
          Desperatehopeful wrote:

Delusions are usually fueled by the fear of the unknown and sometimes guilt.

 

... Before my beautiful husband became totally consumed by DDJ, he had periods of some clarity... the way he explained it to me was, "it's like thick storm clouds hovering over me, and then suddenly the clouds open and the sun shines through." He used to write me emails and notes saying "I'm so sorry for the terrible crucible I've put upon you..." He even said to me, "I say these things of you (i.e., being a lesbian/drug user/etc.) because they are my greatest fear" ... That was years ago... slowly but surely... the storm clouds never subsided and I never saw his beautiful eyes or genuine smile towards me again...

I do want to point out that when I have an opportunity to be away with him and our 4 girls... for example we all go to visit our daughter that is away at College by the ocean in Salisbury, MD... he seems closer to the person he used to be... his persona is lighthearted and we can even have a somewhat lively conversation... Perhaps this is because he is away from the stress he feels (mostly fueled by DD) at work. He loves to fish and be by the water. 

Virginia Star wrote:

           One on medication will have a slowered brain, a mouth that waters, a pair of feet that do not correspond to the brain, a heart that does not feel, and some physical problems as well, for example some patients on medication have trouble urinating. Those patients will be given another medicine to help them urinate unnaturally. One loses creativity and talents after he/she takes medication, though he/ she will become manageable.


Let me reiterate that I am divorced now... not by choice, but because it's what the doctor strongly recommended in order for him to be released from some of the DDJ anxiety he was feeling, and because I thought it was best for my daughters. But before the divorce, I was faced with the decision to have him committed ... his family actually offered to come over and help with the intervention... I was so scared of how he would react once he was released... he's 6'4" and 250 lbs.... what if he'd be in a rage because I had committed him? I mean, he already hated me, I didn't want to add fuel to the fire... So I decided against it... I never pushed him into taking the anti-psychotic medication that was prescribed for him... he did for about 2 or 3 days and then stopped ... his excuse was that I was the one that should be on the medication... The reason I didn't push more for him to take them is because I was told that it could/would change his personality, etc. ... As far as the children were concerned, he was still a loving dad, although they'd tell me he'd talk to them about my "horribleness" behind my back. Nevertheless, he "loved" them... I couldn't bear making him take meds that would alter his love and affection for them.... so I backed off...

Thanks for letting me ramble on once again. I can't tell you how much I appreciate reading your posts! God bless us all...

 

            ----------------------------------------

 

3. If you have children, take heed...

by MrSicily » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:14 pm

              ...and get your children the help they need.

I only say this because my wife is at the beginning of DD, and we have eight children, the oldest being 15. Our oldest had a severe psychotic episode over the summer and is still not back to where he was before everything began. He has been in three different inpatient psychiatric institutions in three months, and along the way I have had a lot of time to talk to many different doctors, therapists and social workers about his background and history.

What has come through loud and clear is that since his mother is DD, he has a strong genetic predisposition for a psychosis. If you add the fact that I had cancer two years ago, you also have a very stressful situation for a child to be in, and he was only 12 -- a very vulnerable age. Cancer is probably not an issue for most, but if a parent is in a full-fledged DD episode, that would be stressful on any child. So then you would have a strong "genetic loading" and very stressful situation for a child, and the result could be a psychosis later down the road.

It didn't help that our son also smoked pot. When an adolescent smokes pot, it greatly increases the risk factor for a psychosis. You can also tell your kids that.

I only write this so those with DD spouses and children can attend to the needs of their children and get counseling for them if necessary. Looking back, I wish we had done that with our son but we didn't have that knowledge at the time, and, hey, I got better, so it seemed as if everything was fine again. 

This is just something I have learned along the way with DD: there are genetic factors that are passed down to the children and the stress of DD effects children also. I hope this helps someone!

MrSicily

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by Desperatehopeful » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:27 pm

Dear Mr. Sicily,
             Thanks for sharing..this is my biggest fear that my children will develop DD. I try to make sure to minimize the stress level. I've noticed my daughter is very sensitive and cries very easily but can be easily consoled. If she sees me upset she'll empathize and is very concerned with my well being. She becomes very upset when she hears family arguments. Did your son display similar signs when he was younger? 
Thanks,
Desperatehopeful

Last edited by Desperatehopeful on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by MrSicily » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:37 pm

            Thanks, Desperatehopeful! All of this is unfortunately on the schizophrenic spectrum, as I understand it: DD, psychosis and full-blown schizophrenia. The psychosis my son experienced was a complete break from reality, where he thought a good friend of ours had a demon, talked to a cat, thought he had special powers to do miracles, told me if I had a good back I would be pure etc. At the worse he could not complete a full sentence, was so confused he couldn't figure out whether to wear his flip-flops or his sneakers, and was aggressive toward me -- all based on a delusion about what I was going to do to him. All in all, a severe psychosis.

Before this happened, he was fine, very normal, but there were signs before the full-blown episode. The month before it happened his personality changed; he got more zealous and religiously-preoccupied, his affect was flat (little emotion), but it was a mixed bag: he accused a friend of ours for having a demon one day but apologized the next and was fine. The psychosis was setting in, but it wasn't a clear picture, because sometimes he would be ok, sometimes a bit off. So he started as a very normal 15 year old and, before our eyes, deteriorated slowly, so slowly we hardly noticed it until it hit. Then he was off the wall.

All this is on a different level than a neurosis, so if your child is crying, that might be good. I mean, you can have it difficult at home and perhaps be depressed, but at least you are still in touch with reality. My son exited this reality for a bit. This is very bad, because at this point it seems that we may be looking at schizophrenia, as the symptoms have lasted about five months, and six months marks the schizophrenia mark. Not that he has it, but with a DD mother, he does have those genes, now doesn't he? 

The psychiatrists said that stress can trigger a psychosis, as it can with DD. We try to keep the stress down now, if we can. But we do have a family of eight with a three and a four year old, so it's kinda' pretty much impossible. And the stress of having our son hospitalized and disappearing before our eyes -- he became someone completely different -- brought on a major DD episode with my wife. I only hope if we can get into a less stressful mode (which is probably impossible), then perhaps her symptoms will go away. Already she is somewhat better.

I really hope it goes well with your daughter. With my cancer, it was very difficult on our three children over 10, and our son was 12. I saw how it hit them very hard. One thing I have learned through cancer and DD: if a child is caught in a crisis situation, they could very well need counseling or some type of professional help. They are little flowers, as it were, and it is difficult to be stepped on by life's situations.

About family arguments, oh boy. My wife says some really outlandish things; on one hand I don't want an argument, but on the other hand, we really can't live our family life based on someone's delusions. So I find myself caught between a rock and a hard place. 

All the best to you and your daughter, as well as your husband! I didn't mean to be so long, but I hope it answered your question.
MrSicily

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by peytonmanning18 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:27 pm

              I worry about this too, what with my wife with her apparent DD and my having an aunt with schizophrenia my 9 year old son has genetics working against him on both sides of the family. 

He is sensitive too, also cries during family arguments (one of the reasons I moved out actually, to try to reduce the stress on all of us).

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by Desperatehopeful » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:19 am

               Predisposed children should be raised in a secure, non paranoid, and calm environment. They should be taught the importance of expressing their feelings and not to feel shame of their thoughts or bottle them up. They should learn the importance of stress management. They should be encouraged to participate in school functions and extra curricular activities. I've also heard multi vitamins, especially, Vit.C, B-complex and Omega 3 are helpful to maintain a balanced nervous system. Many children diagnosed with a mood disorder have had positive response after taking these vitamins. 

I've also heard that some predisposed adolescents and young adults are prescribed a low dose anti-depressant to help manage their emotions and as a precaution to avoid a full blown psychotic episode. I've read about a psychiatrist who has recovered from schizophrenia. He has four children none of them have shown signs of mental illness but they're all taking anti depressants as precaution.

I also believe it is very important that children are taught the dangers of drugs and alcohol. They need to know that it's even more dangerous for them because of their predisposition to mental illness. 

As a parent, I'm willing to try anything that I believe is positive. 
Desperatehopeful

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by MrSicily » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:34 am

           Thanks, Desperatehopeful. I never thought of my children taking anti-depressants as a precaution against psychosis; something to think about. Perhaps that would have helped my son. 
MrSicily

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by Desperatehopeful » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:08 pm

Dear Mr Sicily,
            How are you and your family doing? I hope your son is feeling better.

Thinking of you,
Desperate hopeful

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by MrSicily » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:41 pm

                Thanks for asking, Desperate hopeful. My son is doing better, but by millimeters. He is far from what he used to be; almost a different person, but he is very compliant with taking his meds (zyprexia) and going to therapy and is, at 15 years old, doing his best to find his way through a major psychosis. In one sense, his life has fallen apart at the age of 15, but seems to be doing quite well under the circumstances. A little progress is better than no progress.

We've had three or four good weeks with my wife. She didn't bring up her delusions at all, I don't think: just stray paranoia thoughts, which is par for the course. She's lovely to be with when she is like this; I can handle the paranoia -- no problem. But, alas, I knew it couldn't last, and it didn't: the delusions just will not die, no matter how much reality is against them. She went out with some friends yesterday and talked about her thoughts -- I think they just about died, from what my wife told me. I sense that she is just at the beginning of all this, and our friends are just starting to get a clue; I sincerely hope the DD doesn't get much worse.

The rest of the family is good. May God preserve my children! They are so sweet, every one of their little faces, the thought of my wife's DD getting much worse is hard to digest. I'm thankful for this forum, as it really helps me in dealing with my wife, for her good.

Thanks again for asking,
MrSicily

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Re: If you have children, take heed...

by Desperatehopeful » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:23 am

Hi MrSicily,
          You've gone through so much...your strength amazes me. I'll keep you in my prayers and may God bless your children. I'm please to hear that your son is taking his meds and is on his way to recovery. Hopefully, with therapy he will learn to manage his symptoms and reduce the chances of a relapse.

wishing you brighter days,
Desperate hopeful

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To Mr. Sicily

by virginia star » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:41 am

            I know you're not going to believe me for anything in the world, but I still want to tell you something really true about psychotropic drugs. They do not eliminate any undesirable thoughts, delusions you may call, and if they do, they do it in the expense of brain functions. Of course one does not imagine as much when his brain becomes some sort of glue.

Why not view your son from a different angle? Psychiatry is not the only way of judging people because it is based on opinions only. Your son can never be expected to become a normal man you see every day. He will only become more like vegetable if you drug him. Why not let him be who he is and remain unique?

 

            ----------------------------------

 

4. Question

by MrSicily » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:51 pm

            I was wondering if anyone would have an answer to an important question about my wife. She has recently been talking to her friends about her delusion, and they are floored by it. It is really outrageous. She believes our son got his psychosis because a friend of the family smoked pot with him in May and more -- thus his psychosis. It turns out that Thomas has been a very positive person in our son's life, hired him and helped him in many ways, and our son has repudiated her ideas many times. It so happens that when the psychosis started, Josh was working with Thomas -- thus the "proof." 

Anyway, one of my wife's friends made a good, logical suggestion: she should get together with Thomas, myself and perhaps one other and hash this out with him. Thus, there might be a resolution to it when my wife saw that Thomas was innocent.

Any thoughts about this? I think under normal circumstances, it could be a good idea, but this is not a normal circumstance. No matter what Thomas said, my wife would twist it somehow. I don't think the delusion will just die a nice death. But, on the other hand, it may be worth a try. It could also make things worse, as she may then weave a deeper set of delusions to support her beliefs. I'm starting to think that hashing it out with Thomas might be a good idea, but only if she wanted to do this -- not because her friend strongly encouraged her to it.

Thanks in advance for any responses.
MrSicily

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Re: Question

by Chucky » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:11 pm

Hi MrSicily,
          You didn't actually mention why you think your son developed this psychosis. Do you think that it's just a genetic thing?; or do you believe there to be another cause? Whatever the case, I think that your wife's worries need to be explored and understood; and not simply rejected. You should encourage her to explain why she thinks that Thomas is to blame, and what evidence there is for this. Perhaps through this process, she might even see herself that her thoughts are rather delusional. Is she delusional in other things too though? I wouldn't classify her as having Delusional Disorder based on just one single delusion.

Your idea about talking to Thomas is good, but I think that getting to know his parents would be a good idea too. If your wife sees that his parents are fine, then she'll infer herself that they have raised Thomas well. So, maybe you could organise a night out or something with his parents?
Kevin

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Please send me a private message if you need help with anything.

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Re: Question

by Desperatehopeful » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:18 am

Hi MrSicily,
          I believe it will be very difficult to change your wife's delusional thoughts. The intentions are good but if Mr. Thomas doesn't know how to handle the situation correctly, it might make things worse. I'm just curious has your wife been diagnosed with DD and does she take meds? 
If you do decide to speak with Mr. Thomas, remember to always ask your wife what facts does she have to back up her beliefs and having a female intuition is not good enough. 

Good luck,
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Re: Question

by leavingthedarkness » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:16 am

Mr. Sicily,
        If your wife is truly delusional, any "efforts" to reason with her about her delusions, will only further entrench her delusions. I agree with Kevin that you need to first be sure that she is truly delusional. If she is delusional, all logical methods or reasoning will not only be a waste of time and energy, but will further deepen her delusions about Thomas and your son. As you said in your post :" this is not a normal circumstance. No matter what Thomas said, my wife would twist it somehow." A person with delusional disorder is impervious to external influence about his/her beliefs. When there are evidences contradict his/her beliefs, the delusional person will eventually find flaws in the evidences. What you are "fighting" against, is her unshakable "belief", not an idea or a theory in her mind.

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Re: Question

by MrSicily » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:00 pm

              Thank you all for your posts. It is truly helpful to me in my situation.

What LeavingTheDarkness says is exactly how she is: impervious to any rational arguments or facts to the contrary of her beliefs. This is what I first noticed, plus how outlandish her beliefs were. I did tell her once, "I'm willing to believe what you say, just convince me." She got furious with me, because I told her, "Ok, I still don't see how you get from point A to point B." Since then, she has gathered more "evidence"; things that a normal person would not think twice about she reads deep meanings into. I should note that she has been PPD for our entire marriage, and she has always walked on psychological quicksand; her childhood was a disaster, worse than anyone I've ever known. Throw lots of anxiety and depression in there, and it's quite a mix. But, with my help, she has been able to keep her head above the water these years, and she is truly a wonderful person. And she did get worse -- slowly but steadily -- after my cancer, and my son's psychosis put her over the edge, I think. 

After reading the other posts, I feel embarrassed: my wife isn't so bad as many others, but it is starting to consume more of her thought life, though she does still have good days. In her web of delusions, she has now added another culprit, which is not good. I think we are at the beginning of all this. When my son went through three psych institutions, I talked to many psychiatrists along the way about my wife (they had seen her in action), and all agreed that she had DD. Once I talked to a psychiatrist about her for two hours, and that was enormously helpful.

My son now is actually doing better, as he is quite compliant with his meds and therapy. She is totally against the meds (they cause the psychosis, she thinks), and I don't think I could ever get her to go in that direction. We shall see, though.

You all have given me something to think about, so thanks!

MrSicily

 

            -----------------------------------

 

5. Discussing DD with Wife?

by MrSicily » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:54 am

                I am considering bringing up my wife's DD with her, as she is now incorporating others into her web of delusions. Up to now this has been baby DD or perhaps DD-lite, nothing as bad as other stories I read on this forum (but it has been enough for me), but I have sensed that we are also just at the beginning of this. Practically speaking, it's now becoming more difficult to make decisions with her, as I guess we can't base our decisions on which way to go with the kids on a delusional process, now can we? So I wonder what to do.

I thought to, in a very nice way at a quiet moment, tell her we both love our children (eight of them), and I really don't think she is stupid (she's very insecure) but that she has a problem. Perhaps she should see a psychologist for everyone's good, and for the long-term good of the children and our family. Something like that. Maybe also to mention that all our friends are now pretty much floored at how she is thinking, but this is probably too confrontational. Hmmm.

The problem is, even mentioning her delusions is an explosive issue. Of course I'd like to forget all of this but it seems like we just can't. Keeps coming back, uglier than ever. Not sure what to do.

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by leavingthedarkness » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:49 am

MrSicily,
       If you can influence your wife's thoughts/beliefs by talking to her, then she is not delusional.

I do understand that you are confused and want to do something. I can only imagine your mind constantly thinks: there must be something one can do to change her. Unfortunately, it is not possible - this is the nature of DD. You cannot change her, but you can change the situation.

Sometime ago (I think it was early this year), Chloe or Bri posted some really useful tactics as to how to deal with DD. Maybe you can dig it out by searching their posts. I will try to do so tomorrow after work, if you have no luck with it.

leavingthedarkness

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by MrSicily » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:16 pm

             Thanks, Leavingthedarkness. It would be a help if you were able to find those sites; I can try also. I think she might have DD only because she can't be convinced, and the more reality we bring to bear on the subject, the more she twists everything so she is right; I mean, really outlandish stuff. I don't know if she really believes the crazy stuff she says, or if it just pops out of her in the moment. But she now has this idea about someone else, also with no evidence, and she has mentioned it to me twice so, like a hot brand going deeper into the skin, it is fast becoming a new reality.

My hope was not to change her thinking, only to bring up that she might have this little itsy bitsy problem that I have noticed in such a small way in the last six months, and maybe I'm wrong, but perhaps she would want to think about getting psychological help with it. That's all. Actually challenging her on any of her ideas is a dead end; I don't even consider it now.

Thanks for looking up that post if you have the time!
MrSicily

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by peytonmanning18 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:41 pm

MrSicily wrote:... Practically speaking, it's now becoming more difficult to make decisions with her, as I guess we can't base our decisions on which way to go with the kids on a delusional process, now can we? So I wonder what to do.


Yes, the realization that I am making joint decisions about my son's schooling and other issues with a person (my wife) who lived in a fundamentally different world than I did is probably one of the hardest things to deal with. 

 

...I thought to, in a very nice way at a quiet moment, tell her we both love our children (eight of them), and I really don't think she is stupid (she's very insecure) but that she has a problem. Perhaps she should see a psychologist for everyone's good, and for the long-term good of the children and our family. Something like that....


Is she feeling stressed/anxious at all? If yes it might be more constructive (and less threatening to her) to try to get her to see someone in order to help deal with that problem, rather than bringing up the delusions. (My wife also has gotten very insecure about other people thinking she is stupid...she certainly isn't, and no one I know thinks she is but she feels other people perceive her that way). 

 

...Maybe also to mention that all our friends are now pretty much floored at how she is thinking, but this is probably too confrontational. Hmmm....


Yes, if my experience is any guide this probably wouldn't go well. 

 

...The problem is, even mentioning her delusions is an explosive issue. Of course I'd like to forget all of this but it seems like we just can't. Keeps coming back, uglier than ever. Not sure what to do.


It seems from reading this forum that the couples that have successfully dealt with this problem as a couple have had a level of mutual trust going into the crisis. In my own situation that wasn't there, at least not at a strong enough level, and it ended up destroying our marriage. Not trying to discourage you but hopefully give you something to focus on.

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by leavingthedarkness » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:16 am

Hi MrSicily,
         I did a little digging, here is a list of topics in the DD forum that you might find helpful or interesting. 

delusional-disorder/topic36573.html
LEAP - Listen Empathise Agree Partner

delusional-disorder/topic36555-10.html 
Delusional Disorder (DD) - Making Sense of It

delusional-disorder/topic36236.html
Walking on eggshells

delusional-disorder/topic32025.html
How to respond to a delusion?

Hope this helps.

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by MrSicily » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:44 am

             Dear leavingthedarkness, thanks so much for those links you included! They were FANTASTIC. I could really relate to the "Walking on eggshells" link. I've divided my life up into three zones: red light, green light, yellow light. We happen to be on a green light now, where my wife is wonderful, the best person to be with in the world. I feel more free now to talk with her, interrelate with her on a somewhat normal level. Yellow is where things are slipping and I have to start to use caution. With red, I think long and hard before telling her anything. Even the simplest, harmless remark can be taken wrong. Even some good stuff she will turn it into bad. 

So she goes in and out of it. The other stuff was great too. Thanks,
MrSicily

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To MrSicily

by virginia star » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:14 am

          If you do love your wife, do not view her as a psychiatrist does. Psychiatry has no scientific back up. It is a sort of pseudoscience.
DD is a term minted by psychiatrists when they wrote DSM. Please never introduce the system of psychiatry into the life of your wife. That will ruin her. You can read more web articles concerning the harmful effects of psychiatry and learn more. 
Love every quality of your wife including her bizzar way of thinking, if you do love her. Perhaps you can try to know the real cause of her feeling insecure and make some change. Do something real. Don't hurt your wife by way of Psychiatry.

virginia star

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by Duff » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:54 am

               fyi if she is delusional, and having a bad episode... you telling her she is delusional is pointless. She won’t believe you. Talk to her on her level, and go from there. I’m sure she is suffering just like you, maybe more. And btw if this gets too extreme, bringing in a third party would be the best bet (objective commentary NOT from her hubby is ideal).

Sincerely,
Duff

rx: haldol, trileptal, lamictal, klonopin, cymbalta

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by MrSicily » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:21 am

            Thanks, Duff. I tried to ever so gently broach this subject but stopped when what I got back was not positive. Well, it would be nice if we could talk about it. When she says something, I might come back with, "Hmmm, I don't remember it like that..." Then she will say, "You just think I'm stupid..." What I would like her to understand is that I do not think she is stupid, but that she just has a problem.

I did say it would be "nice" to talk about it openly, but lots of things would be nice that we don't have. I'll just have to add this onto the list.
MrSicily

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Re: Discussing DD with Wife?

by virginia star » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:20 am

               I see you do care for your wife's feelings. Perhaps she would like to be considered as being stupid than having problems. I was only making a guess. Talk to her more about the reality, with patience, and she will wake up entirely one day from her dreams. Good Luck

 

            ------------------------------

 

6. How it's going...

by MrSicily » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:17 am

           It's going good. Of the some three trillion web pages out there, I find myself parked here and would very much like to move on. For the most part, my wife has been great recently. A joy to be with. A wonderful woman in every way. Yet just when I think we can move on from her delusion, it pops up again and I once again realize, it will never die, and may very well get worse over time.

I find it amazing how much proof against the delusion we have amassed, yet none of it shakes her opinion. Her delusion has been disproved ten times now, yet she still holds onto it. Most recently, right in front of my son's therapist (he is recovering from psychosis), she asked him, "Josh, am I just making this all up? Am I?" He said clearly, "You're making this all up." "Would you want your little brothers to go over to Thomas's house?" "Yes," he said clearly. We went out to supper that evening and, amazingly, she still believed in her delusion and has brought it up several times since. Wow.

I read all the stories here, and they are helpful. My wife has a really odd delusion. She is convinced that Thomas has smoked pot with our son and abused him. I had a dream where another good friend of ours was holding our 3-year-old, and she burst out and accused him, "You hurt him! You hurt him!" In the dream I told her firmly, "He did not." Our friend shrunk back. So it could be that her delusions will center around the mistreatment of our children, probably because she was severely mistreated herself as a child.

Our son does not seem to be doing well, unfortunately. Very little progress if any. He was very psychotic in the summer; I feel as if he has died. Gone is the big-hearted, gentle soul I knew. I am afraid that my new memories of him will replace the old ones and someday I'll forget what he was really like. That's scary. Severe mental illness is cruel.

We are at the start of all this with my wife and quite into it with my son. My 13 year old daughter is pleasant to be with, as she is still sane. It's nice to talk to sane people. I never realized how pleasant a thing it really is!
MrSicily

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Re: How it's going...

by Chucky » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:40 pm

Hey,
            I think that the first thing you should try to do is to get her to accept that she has a problem. The best approach to d o this is to (i believe) let her read literature/stories on delusional disorder written by either professional websites/organisations or people who have suffered from DD themselves. You could simply print off these articles and leave them lying around the house or something - she should eventually pick them up and read them in her own time!
Kevin

 

            ------------------------------------

 

7. Cancer Vs. DD

by MrSicily » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:34 am

Dear DD Friends,
       I recently posted back and forth with Beautiful Mind and thought to write about a few interesting perspectives on DD from those posts. It may help someone along the way. 

First, in the question cancer vs. DD, I should explain my history a bit. I had the second worse cancer in the US two years ago; I also had the worse operation a person can have, even worse than open heart surgery and then, because I was only 46 years old, went though the worse Chemo and Radiation treatments they could give me; they could not have given a body any more! During this time, my family was upside down, in crisis, and so were my wife and kids, and I have eight of them. I was also part of a Esophageal Cancer forum similar to this, and checked it every day for two years.

Regarding DD, my wife had a prominent episode in the summer of 2009 when my son got a very bad psychosis. She was completely impossible to deal with, such that I didn't even want to be around her. She had this delusion that one of our friends caused our sons psychosis and in other ways she was completely nutty. It was a total meltdown.

Of the two crises, by far the cancer crisis was easiest, though it was extremely intense in its own way. Why? When I got cancer, it brought our family together and we realized the value of each other, and didn't take each other for granted as we had. My wife and children cared for me, and I still am thankful for how they helped me in so many ways. With DD, however, the relationship with my wife was horrible, as she didn't accuse me so much, but we had to make decisions on our son, and much of the time we just couldn't agree. She, for instance, thought the medicine caused the psychotic symptoms and, in some cases, it can; but her being totally against the medicine was a strain. This was just one instance of her odd thinking at the time. If I said anything to correct her in this and other crazy thoughts, she would come unglued, and here we're not even talking about her delusion – that was another story all together.

Also, the tone of the cancer forum vs. the DD forum was different. In the cancer forum, people were distraught and torn, but not like those in the DD forum. I think this has to do with the fact that families were basically together, though in crisis. Many times when the loved one died, the family would be stricken, but could at least hold on to the fact that they had the best few months with their spouse ever before they died (in many cases). In the cancer world, one blog had users write in about “What cancer has taught me,” and 80 percent were very positive – page after page of positive things users had found that cancer had taught them about life, the value of family and friends and so forth.

With this forum, the tone is different, more shrill, the anguish is worse, from reading the posts. Families are destroyed, and what can be worse that that? The spouse whom one loved has suddenly turned against one – how bad is that! And the spouse doesn't die, so they are still around to cause trouble, and there is no “good last three months” with them, where one can at least have good memories afterward. 

And society plays a part in this. When I got cancer, everyone was sorry for me, and quite a few gave us money, and long lost aunts sent me cards, and all my friends wanted updates, so I sent an email around about how I was doing, and we had help in the house, as we had little children at the time, and our friends came round and did the yard work and took care of our pool, since I was out of commission, and so forth. Get the idea?

With DD and my son's psychosis, it was different. People didn't understand, couldn't understand, had the wrong ideas, saw my son and thought he might be violent (he wasn't), and many tried to help but were not able, and I spent lots of time educating people on what a psychosis was, and what DD was, and that it wasn't my wife, it was a disease, and no one sent us money or volunteered to help with the lawn, and no cards came, but rather blank stares and concerned looks. Mental illness has a stigma, especially in the US, and this follows us, so where there should be support there is perhaps none, and it has to be borne pretty much alone, or with just a few who might really care and understand.

Another perspective: our culture vs. Norwegian culture. When my son developed his psychosis, he was in Norway, and I rushed over and two days later had to commit him to a Norwegian psychiatric hospital, so I saw how Europeans deal with mental illness first-hand. It is amazing. There is not the stigma; they see mental illness as just one part of the multifaceted fabric of life. People get cancer, people have problems with diabetes, others have stomach problems, some have mental illness, some have knee problems, some are heavy...mental illness is just in there with them all, and nothing special. In this country, obviously, it is not that way; there is a stigma, who knows why, and this is very harmful for the patient and his\her family.

Finally, there is the issue of the mental health care system itself. In Norway, guess what: they are investing in more psychiatric institutions and care. That means they are putting money into the system, building more psych centers and so forth. And, when I was there, no one was stressed about the money and insurance issue, as they are in the US. They provided care in a relaxed atmosphere, separate from the money issue. They were just there to help and nothing else.

When we came back to the US, words don't do justice to the system we found in New York State. Perhaps it's different elsewhere in the US, but a good friend of mine who is high-up in the Ohio mental health system says it's like this everywhere. Where can we start? Facilities are being shut, such that there was no facility where we live for adolescents, so we had a choice: have him go to an inpatient facility 2 ½ hours away or go to one 1 ½ hours away from home, so for three and a half weeks every day we drove 1 ½ hours one way to see him. It was a tremendous burden. Oh, before he was admitted, he had to go through a psychiatric emergency room, which was two steps below hell, and had to stay there a night. Patients were sleeping on cots, on the floor, over couches, and the adolescent and adult units were separated by a couch. It was severely overcrowded – and was that way most of the time. Then there was the time that my son was to go from an inpatient visit to this psychiatric emergency room, and the quickest way to do this is our system was to be escorted by the cops. Well, my son was psychotic, and so he made a move to resist, and the cops had him on the ground and in hand cuffs in two seconds. My son got to ride over to CPEP in the police car, in cuffs, and we got to follow in our car. Get the idea? Even to this day, my wife is now going to a therapist, but, guess what? There has been a problem with the insurance, so this hoop we are now jumping through.

The take-away from all this is that if you have a DD spouse, you have to consider it a crisis not unlike someone getting cancer in the family, but worse by a lot. There's lots of bad things that can happen to people, but this is perhaps the worse. This is what we are dealing with. It is like a cancer of the mind. One encouragement, though: try not to give into the “why me” thoughts. When I first was diagnosed with cancer, that came to me, but I quickly saw they didn't lead to any place good. Hey, you never get an answer, anyway, do you? In the cancer forum, I noticed that some would waste a lot of time on such questions. It's very understandable, but quite unhealthy. The hardest part is to give up, in one sense, mourn for your loss in a healthy way, and move on, as hard as that is. It's difficult to experience a loss on this magnitude. May God help us all with it.
MrSicily

P.S. By the way, the cancer experience really did my son in, as he was 12 (a vulnerable age), a boy and the oldest. Even to this day he says he thinks about my cancer daily, and is worried now that he might have a brain tumor. 

All this was not good for him at all. He was deeply into drugs a year after I was diagnosed, so we have seen the drug world also. How deep? He got kicked out of school for a year for selling pot in school. This was another crisis in and of itself. It turned out that he got converted, became a Christian, and turned his life around 180 degrees. He was a different person – right up until he got a bad psychosis last summer.

So we've seen the cancer world, the drug world and the mental health world in the last three years. I guess that makes one well rounded!

MrSicily

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Re: Cancer Vs. DD

by Chucky » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:14 pm

              Thank you for the interesting read, MrSicily. It's the first time I can admit to ever seeing anyone compare cancer with DD! I don't think that you are looking for any real suggestions based on what you've written here, and so I will just outline my thoughts to you, if that's okay? Firstly, your son was lucky to be in Norway, as that is regarded as having the best quality of life in Europe. I'm currently living in the UK but only moved here (from Ireland) 6 months ago - I'm nearly 27 years old. Norway isn't even in the European Union either - If they were in the European Union, then they wouldn't be as rich as a nation. They receive most of their wealth from oil under the North Sea. In general too, you'll find that the Scandinavian nations (Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark) are all regarded as having the highest quality of life in Europe.

One fundamental difference between cancer and DD is that they are physical and mental problems, respectively. In life, I’m sure you're well aware that it is physical problems which get the foremost attention. This explains some of what you've encountered so far in relation to your wife's DD and how others have reacted to/treated her.
Kevin

 

            --------------------------------------------

8. Sleeping Pills

by MrSicily » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:26 pm

               I'm really, really thankful for this forum and for all who post here! 

Anyway, I've read references to not getting sleep for those of us with DD spouses, and I can certainly understand this! I just thought to share what helped me during my wife's first DD episode in the summer and fall: sleeping pills, benedryl, and melatonin. I would take one of these every night and remember getting up in the morning and being so thankful for them! I have never taken anything like this ever in my life, but under the circumstances with my son (psychosis) and my wife (DD), I thought it necessary. The nice thing about the melatonin is that it is natural.

My wife is much better now, but we do have islands of craziness in the midst of seas of normalcy, so I don't feel the need for sleeping aids anymore. Just a few days ago she said our son never had a psychosis ("What?"), and I mentioned, "Well, dear, he thought he could do miracles and summon the birds, etc." She said, "Maybe he could do miracles!" (She is a Christian.) I don't think this in itself is DD, just random, nutty thoughts -- one of many. On every level (emotional, mental, spiritual, psychological) she cannot deal with the fact that our son has had a psychosis, is in complete denial and perhaps this led to the DD episode, where she made up false and crazy explanations for what happened to our son and believes them no matter how much truth is pitted against them. Somehow this protects her. The psychiatrist who witnessed her said that probably my son's psychosis brought up her own psychological vulnerability, which is a definite possibility.

Anyway, for a while, just getting a good night's sleep was like medicine to me. It helped me to deal with the day's trials. Of course, if the episode lasts for a long time, it's probably not possible to take sleeping aids in the long term.
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by peytonmanning18 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:02 pm

           I'm sure this is a great idea for many people. In my own case I was so stressed by my wife's apparent DD symptoms that I asked my Primary Care for a prescription sleep aid. He gave me one (I forget the name) and I used it a couple of times but frankly I was often reluctant to use it...she had sometimes been angry and aggressive, I wasn't in any fear while I was awake but she had a history of waking me up late at night or early in the morning and interrogating me. The one and only time she struck me was while I was lying flat on my back in bed early in the morning. 

So I was afraid of taking something that might make me sleepy/less alert. Moving out of our bedroom to one down the hall helped a little (there were no locks on any of the doors but I would pile stuff up inside the door so at least I would have some warning if she decided to burst in again in the middle of the night). Moving out of the house solved the problem of course, I sleep fine now.

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            ------------------------------

 

9. Mental Health Proxy Form

by MrSicily » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:31 pm

            I had an idea that may help others struggling with a DD spouse, especially where children are involved. Imagine if when you got married – or shortly thereafter – you and your spouse created a “Mental Health Health Care Proxy,” similar to a medical proxy. In the medical world, you state, “If I am inconspiated or am on a breathing machine, or am a vegetable, I would like to be disconnected from all life support systems...” In these conditions, you tell your spouse what you would like done to you in the event you aren't “there” anymore.

In the mental health analogy, my wife and I would sign something that said something like, “If I ever get DD and make my children and husband's life a hell, I would like to be separated\divorced and, if I hold a job, I would like my wages garnished, for the sake of my family. I also do not want there to be any abuse on my part, so I authorize you to do anything to avoid this at my hand, both for you and the children. Also, please commit me to any institution that you feel would offer a chance to help me.” I personally would sign something like this for myself, since I would hate to be a burden on my family. Wouldn't you?

Without this, I think we with DD spouses are left to decide what a DD sufferer would really have wanted before the illness set in. I think it's a good exercise to engage in: before our spouse was sick, how would they have wanted me to handle the situation? I think most, if not all, would want, if nothing else, that the children were safe and taken care of.

Ok, I don't think there will ever be a “Mental Health Proxy form”, but I'm just using this to make a statement. I think this could relieve a lot of guilt found when we make decisions in the course of an extended DD episode.

Just these thoughts...

Dave

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Re: Mental Health Proxy Form

by leavingthedarkness » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:01 am

             I had similar thoughts, when I was at the heat of my divorce battle with my ex. I had to fight hard to have him evaluated and to keep my share of our estate. The whole time, he continued to make sure that I knew of his affairs -- I suppose it was his way of getting bback at me - to absolutely break my heart, for what he had "suffered" through all these years. In fact, I had written letters to the dear man that I married and fell in love with- not the same man who enjoyed hurting me. I wrote and told him that I thought that he would be proud of me for how hard I have been fighting for our children. 

The man that I married and fell in love with, and devoted 16 years of my life with, is gone. This person that I have to keep a minimum level of communication (for the children's sake), is not the same man anymore. That man that I married, would never hurt me like so. In fact, he was so protective, he would not allow anyone to hurt me at all. 

So I am working hard on letting go. It is like my ex had a twin brother. This man that shows up at my door steps (when he drops off the children), is his evil twin...

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            --------------------------------------

 

10. Journal

by MrSicily » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:14 am

Journal
          For the last four months, I have kept a journal of all the oddities of my wife (what she said, how she was) for every day. Then after three months, I read the journal over on a plane trip out West. Wow. I think we live life too up-close; after reading the summation of three months, I felt like I saw into a different part of reality that I had never considered. To give an example: I thought she was doing great and, in a way, she was, but lots of stuff was popping up in the midst of the “normalcy.”

I actually did an analysis of all her nuttiness: how many times she verbalized the Thomas delusion, all the weird thoughts, wrong and paranoid thoughts; anything unusual. Here it is:

DD 10 (individual instances) 23 (total times mentioned)
Weird Thoughts 18 (individual instances) 19 (total times mentioned)
PPD 9 (individual instances) 14 (total times mentioned)

So she had ten instances of DD thinking, but she mentioned them quite a bit, for a total of 23 times. So forth with the weird thoughts and PPD. Looking at the target of the above, see the following people are included: 

Thomas 17
Mike B 5
KS 2
CMC 5 (hospital our son stayed at)
LM 2
BW 2

And the themes are as follows:

Someone is persecuting our children 17
Zyprexa is bad 5
Weirdly wrong: 10

For me the above was eye-opening. It showed that she has a lot of weird thoughts – like, for instance, that Zyprexa causes brain cancer (yes, she believes that.) But she really mentioned the DD thoughts quite a bit: only ten in total, but she went over and over it. PPD was comparatively behind.

The people all this was directed against was also surprising. I had totally missed that she was aiming her guns at Mike B., a good friend of our family. Looking back, she did spin him into her web but the instances were separated by weeks in some cases, so I didn't put it all together. And CMC was also a big target.

The theme shows that she really has an issue with thinking that people are persecuting our children, and, besides that, she just has weirdly wrong thoughts. Very interesting.

Finally, I was actually able to write a summary from all the data:

“It is hard for my wife to believe that her children can do wrong, as when BW “came after” Josh and got him into drugs, for instance, and the church youth group was “promoting rebellion” and “encouraging Josh not to talk to his parents”, and Mike B. is telling him to not “take his meds”, or when he went to Norway and “wasn't fed enough food or slept enough” (thus causing psychosis) and even the psychosis was not his fault but Thomas'. And there is danger out there, as when relatives with “cocaine under their fingernails caused the children to act weird”. Even worse, her children are being persecuted in any number of ways, such as when the school nurse “questions them about life at home”, or when he was “abused by Thomas”, or when KS and Mike B. “smoked pot with him”. 

But besides this, there is the weirdly wrong thoughts, which portend a deep problem in thinking, as there is no psychological reason for it but just a failure to process reality. Examples of this are when she says, for instance, that our child, got a cleft lip because one of the children fell on her belly during the pregnancy. How many times have we been told this is genetically based? Or that her sister and father sat her down and told her she would be out of the will -- completely untrue. Or when our alternator breaks, the neighbors have come down the road and sabotaged it on us. All these are wrong, weird thoughts.

The weird thoughts have always been there (she has always been psychologically fragile) but coupled with a difficult C-Section in 2003 (a birth trauma, Post Traumatic Stress Injury), plus the massive stress of the last few years threw her off balance psychologically and brought out DD symptoms.”

I would encourage anyone to do this if you have the time. Things change so slowly and we live day to day, so we can't always see trends and put instances together like we perhaps should. My first thought after reading the journal was, “Wow, she's really sick.” DD is just one aspect. So I believe it has been worth the time and effort.
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Re: Journal

by peytonmanning18 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:26 pm

             MrSicily wrote:...the church youth group was “promoting rebellion” ...


Yes, church youth groups are notorious hotbeds of juvenile rebellion and delinquency  

I think the journal is a great idea, I did a similar thing myself for awhile. I don't know what form your journal is or where you keep it but you might want to make sure you take steps so that your wife doesn't accidentally see it...a person that is already feeling persecuted won't take that kind of thing well.

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Re: Journal

by 29andout » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:47 pm

              Great suggestion, and very interesting. I started to write a journal a couple months ago and stopped because I thought it was making me dwell on all the negative. But I can now see that it would be very helpful to be able to go back and recognize how bad things are when I'm tempted to slip back into thinking that things really aren't that bad. Rationalizing & "forgetting" have become natural coping mechanisms, it seems. In addition, as things have escalated, I can no longer even keep track of the new delusions and the time frame of the events. A friend suggested that those things should be documented in case it ever got to the point where he needed to be committed.....I'm guessing that my journal wouldn't be of much use in that situation, however. 

Might get that journal out again tonight.............

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Re: Journal

by leavingthedarkness » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:47 pm

              I think this is such a great idea. I wished that I had done it during the 3 years my ex-husband’s DD was progressing. I suppose it is human nature to want to forget and avoid facing the problems. There were many times during an accusation, which turned into an argument, I wished that I had written down something to help me with my memory. At the time, I often chose to believe my ex-husband's words and doubted my own recollection (you all know how assertive and firm they get with their "memories") 

I now also see the benefits of keeping a record. It would probably help me face the cruel truth much earlier -- that my ex-husband was mentally ill. I had hoped that he was only "overly jealous", and if I had coped with more love (and giving in) that he would get better. 

After my ex filed for divorce, one of the best advices I got was from my father-in-law. He told me to keep a journal (calendar/date timer) of everything that had transpired. He told me to write down every incident on the calendar. I also tried to keep all communication in writing (emails, text messages). There were 2 major benefits of doing these: 1) I was certain about facts and not being confused by him anymore, whenever there was an argument or accusations from his delusional thoughts or false memories. 2) It gave me a lot of confidence in my battle with my ex. I knew what I was talking about, because I kept a good record.

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Re: Journal

by MrSicily » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:35 am

                One thing I learned from reading my journal is that, even discounting the DD stuff, my wife is quite sick. This conclusion jumped out at me once I read it. There was a waterfall of weird thoughts, wrong thoughts, paranoid thoughts and the like. All this isn't DD -- I really don't know what they are -- but they are many, like a blip on a graph, even in her "good" times. I think the DD is just added as a relish to make life even more interesting.

I was a computer geek and a programmer for years, so I designed a program to track all of this and crunch numbers -- tallying everything up in a neat package at the end of a month or a quarter. Just looking at this month, I noticed a trend I hadn't seen: she started off the month good but then slowly got worse. It's amazing how people change slowly over time; when we live with them, we just don't see the trends so clearly. This was also true with my son, who had a major psychosis last summer. We missed the signs and could not put them together -- they were so intertwined with all the stuff that goes on in daily living, that we never saw the trend line.

One good thing about a computer is also this: me being a computer geek, I can keep things hidden, by God's grace. With paper and notebooks, the risk is that they will always fall into the hands of the DD person.
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Re: Journal

by so sad » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:16 pm

            Good idea! Sometimes if we've had a semi - normal week I start second guessing his diagnosis and then I blame myself for judging him so harshly. Then a few days later he says something very bizarre and I'm very sure he has DD. A journal would help keep things in perspective. I'll try it.

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            --------------------------------------

 

11. Question on Weird Thoughts

by MrSicily » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:48 pm

         I believe my wife has DD, though this condition is at a stage where it comes and goes. I do have a question about her that others may be able to answer.

Question: did you notice “weird thinking” in your spouse before the DD hit or when it was in an early stage? I haven't heard many posts about this, but was wondering if it was typical. Here are some thoughts that my wife holds:

1) We have a child with a cleft lip, and she believes this was caused by one of our children falling on her abdomen while she was pregnant. Lots of doctors along the way have told us this is a genetic condition, but she still holds to her belief.
2) I got cancer in March of 2007 but had a minor car accident the month before. Angela believes that the accident “jarred something” and caused my cancer. No doctor along the way, obviously, has ever cited this as a possible cause of my cancer.
3) Before our son got his psychosis, he was hanging around with some really great guys in our church, and I have known them since they were children. Five doctors along the way have explained that my son's psychosis has a strong genetic component that the stress of my cancer (plus other things) probably brought out, but my wife believes that Josh's friends caused his psychosis.

And there are other examples besides these...

What makes this all the more interesting is that my wife is a nurse by training, so she understands the medical reasons for things, but she comes up with these really weird interpretations, which are not really delusions in and of themselves. I don't know what they are. I guess they show 1) Something is deeply wrong with her processing, that she comes up with such things and believes them and 2) She has a problem with cause and effect. She's always mixed up cause and effect, but this seems to be worse now than before.

Thanks in advance,
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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by peytonmanning18 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:52 pm

MrSicily wrote:...
She has a problem with cause and effect. She's always mixed up cause and effect, but this seems to be worse now than before.
...

 

This is interesting, years before my wife was ever overtly delusional I noticed she seemed to have a problem with cause and effect. For example she would complain about her weight, how unhappy she was that she was overweight, how she wished she was skinny like she used to be, then she would sit down and eat a pint of ricotta cheese straight out of the tub. 

When I tried to gently point out to her that she might have more success controlling her weight if she tried to modify her eating habits she would look at me like I was speaking Sanskrit or something, like she didn't understand what one could possibly have to do with the other. 

There were many, many examples like this. 

Towards the end when she decided ADD was really her problem she seemed to believe that cause and effect was just a phenomenon invented by people without ADD (neurotypicals) to make life more difficult for people like her.

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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by MrSicily » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:07 pm

           Thanks, peytonmanning18. This was very helpful to me:

 

peytonmanning18 wrote: This is interesting, years before my wife was ever overtly delusional I noticed she seemed to have a problem with cause and effect.


I kinda' wished that others had replied to my post, as I really wonder if my wife's problems with cause and effect are just part of her makeup or a good indicator of DD itself. Everything points to her having DD, but, of course, I'm hoping one day she wakes up and says, "Geese, that was really dumb! What I was thinking." If problems with cause and effect are part of DD -- even before the first episode -- then I don't think that day will ever come -- the "was I really dumb" day.
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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by peytonmanning18 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:33 pm

                 I'm not sure why more people didn't reply to your question...I've asked similar types of questions here in the past and gotten good responses.

There seems to suddenly be a lot of newer people posting in this forum, which I think is good overall but individual threads can get buried quicker too. 

(One thing I've done when asking questions like this is use the format buttons to bold the question part of my post, that might help people remember you're looking for an answer to a specific question).

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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by spiderlily » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:04 am

Hi there,
           I have to admit I didn't really see any odd thought process in terms of cause and effect before my husband became ill with DD. It seems like the things you mention (cancer/car accident etc.) are a part or form of her delusions, maybe a milder form. I think that people with this illness find a way to interpret things without reason. Sadly. Hope that helps.

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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by so sad » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:09 pm

            Before my husband got delusional disorder he would have thoughts like - Mary walked by me at church w/o saying "hi" because she thinks I'm dumb. (As far as I could tell Mary likes him fine.) Or, the guys at work are talking about me. It sounded a little odd but it was possible because he is their boss. He would make a lot of inferences about a lot of things with no real evidence. Over time the inferences have become less probable. "They" are adding fluoride to the water so "they" can dumb us down and then the general public won't recognize their master plan. Because my husband is trying to educate people as to "their" plans he will be one of the first people they pick up. He is singled out along w/ a few others for special harsh treatment. I guess I would say that before DD he gave a lot more significance to ordinary events than you or I would. It has gotten worse over the last few years. I hope you can help your wife.

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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by keenan » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:40 pm

MrSicily wrote: I believe my wife has DD, though this condition is at a stage where it comes and goes.


This is exactly how I would interpret my girlfriend's condition up to this point. If not already full blown DD, she seems headed in that direction.

 

MrSicily wrote: Question: did you notice “weird thinking” in your spouse before the DD hit or when it was in an early stage?


Here's some examples of weird thoughts that my girlfriend holds:

1) For a while she felt guilty about her mother's death, because she thought she caused it. Her mother left her with a large inheritance after dying of cancer. My girlfriend had done a "money ritual" a couple of years prior to her mother's death to try to get more money, so she inferred that she got her "wish" for the money and inadvertently caused her mother's death.
2) She believes that she has "thought insertions" in which "they" (the hidden powers that be?) can "insert" thoughts into her head to make her feel bad or manipulate her.
3) When she is not thinking that she herself killed her mother, she theorizes that "they" killed her mother because her mother started a radio station and the powers that be were unhappy with her "subversive" station. She has taken her mother's place as a dj at the radio station now and she is afraid that "they" will now try to kill her or mess with her in a hidden way.
4) She often jumps to conclusions about people, that they are trying to harm her or insult her, based on what most people would consider meaningless or insignificant incidents, or misunderstandings of jokes or small talk. For example, one time when I was about 20 minutes late in meeting up with her, she exploded at me and went into a rage for a few minutes because she was convinced that I had conspired to hurt her and insult her by secretly planning the whole time on being late to set her up, or something to that effect  

 

MrSicily wrote: but she comes up with these really weird interpretations, which are not really delusions in and of themselves. I don't know what they are. I guess they show 1) Something is deeply wrong with her processing, that she comes up with such things and believes them and 2) She has a problem with cause and effect. She's always mixed up cause and effect, but this seems to be worse now than before.


I see the exact same faulty cognitive process going on with my girlfriend. But not with everything. Her cognitive processing seems normal most of the time with most issues. It's whenever it has to do with persecutory or jealous categories that she seems to completely loose it and becomes totally irrational and illogical, and the concept of cause and effect is tossed out the window. When she develops conclusions both about other people, and about causation of unusual perceptions or negative events, invariably choosing the most paranoid interpretations possible, she is also the most closed to any discussion and the most unwilling to allow in any new or contradictory evidence. It's like, the more irrational and baseless her beliefs are, the more certain she is of their absolute truth and the more unwilling she is to consider any alternatives. It's the weirdest thing ever...

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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by monkeyx » Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:58 pm

          Hey, Mr. S - if you're still hanging around, I'd answer with a definite "YES!" My dd spouse showed tons of signs that I did not recognize until after she went very obviously delusional. There were a million of them that I wrote off to being "free spirited," or "healthily uninhibited" or "not hung up on the silly stuff that makes insecure people like me uncomfortable" or "the most creative person I know."

In retrospect, I am probably now feeling like some perfectly normal aspects of her behavior were also signs that I should have understood. So - do not beat yourself up over not "getting it" sooner. We often make excuses for the people we love. Some women blame themselves for their husbands beating them, when it should be clear that he's the one to blame if blame is to be placed somewhere. 

Now that I am involved with a loved one who is suffering from a DD, I questions lots of stuff. Does it ever seem to you that nobody is really "normal?" Once you get a taste of full blown delusional belief in someone you love, trust, and depend on, it suddenly seems like the whole world is "crazy." I don't mean to use the word "crazy" disrespectfully toward those who have a DD... I'm just describing the gut emotion I can't suppress. I now know that it can affect anyone, and that even very smart, conscientious people can suffer from it. But, suddenly, I suspect that most of us - myself included - are walking around with cognitive deficiencies that prevent us from understanding most of what we experience.

Hang in there, man.

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Re: Question on Weird Thoughts

by MrSicily » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:01 am

           Thanks, Monkeyx! It's really comforting to know that others are going\have gone through the same thing. What I am seeing is just part of the DD condition. Particularly, this is also my situation:

 

monkeyx wrote: My dd spouse showed tons of signs, that I did not recognize until after she went very obviously delusional. There were a million of them that I wrote off to being "free spirited," or "healthily uninhibited" or "not hung up on the silly stuff that makes insecure people like me uncomfortable" or "the most creative person I know."


My wife is the lovely, artistic, creative one, and I am the logical boring one, which is all fine and good, as long as we do not start to wade in delusional waters, which we do now every once in a while. For years I attributed all these small signs as just a quirk of her personality, not realizing it was the precursor to a full-blown DD episode.

The best to you in your situation!
MrSicily

 

            -----------------------------

12. Elvis

by MrSicily » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:47 am

I recently came across this song by Elvis: Suspicious Minds, which, when I heard it, sounded a lot like DDJ. One of the comments on the song said that his wife was very suspicious, but I could not confirm this from a google search. It's worth listening to; he really does a great job. Youtube song is at the following: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdmIhCkp3p4

Suspicious Minds Lyrics are:

We're caught in a trap
I can't walk out
Because I love you too much baby

Why can't you see
What you're doing to me
When you don't believe a word I say?

We can't go on together
With suspicious minds
And we can't build our dreams
On suspicious minds

So, if an old friend I know
Drops by to say hello
Would I still see suspicion in your eyes?

Here we go again
Asking where I've been
You can't see these tears are real
I'm crying

We can't go on together
With suspicious minds
And be can't build our dreams
On suspicious minds

Oh let our love survive
Or dry the tears from your eyes
Let's don't let a good thing die

When honey, you know
I've never lied to you
Mmm yeah, yeah

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by Jaxz16 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:34 am

         Yeah, I've always thought about lovers being passionately delusional about each with most of elvis' love songs

Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.
The bruises go away, and so does how you hate, and so does the feeling that everything you receive from life is something you have earned.
- J.S.F
Dx: BP 1 
Rx: Lithium,Abilify, Klonopin,Topamax

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Re: Elvis

by MrSicily » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:16 am

           Thanks, Jaxz16. If you get a chance to listen to the song, I think it's more than just a sentimental Elvis love song...the issue of suspicion breaks up the entire marriage, and he's left crying about this and "caught in a trap" between staying and leaving. 

Here we go again
Asking where I've been
You can't see these tears are real
I'm crying

This song may not have been intended to be about DDJ, but I can see how it could be interpreted as such. Interestingly, my wife just today accused me of a crazy and unfounded suspicion -- just took two and two and made four, it was almost comical. How she got from point A to point B, I'll never know. So I guess I can sympathize with Elvis.
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13. "I'm not sick..." video

by MrSicily » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:46 pm

              I just watched an excellent 90 minute Youtube video by the author of "I am not sick I don't need help." It's actually good to hear it presented, not just read about it. 

Here is the URL for those who are interested:

 http://www.xavieramador.org/  "I am not Sick, I don't need help!" presentation at the 2011 Nordic Psychiatry Academy  by Xavier Francisco Amador.
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14. Do we go along with the delusion (just a bit)?

by MrSicily » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:29 pm

            My wife is now saying that she will leave me if I allow my son to be around Thomas – a friend of ours in our Church whom she has a delusion about. What do I do?

On one hand, I don't want her to go through with her threat, and this morning she said she wouldn't, but also that “I don't trust that man.” This is the first time she has ever said anything about separation\divorce. At the time, I said I would think about it, so I am not already committed to a decision yet. I really don't want to lose my family, because in her delusional heat, she is capable of walking out, and we have eight children, ages 3 to 15. I also don't see that it's good and healthy for us to base our family life around a delusion; as more people potentially get sucked into her net (and this has started to happen), our social friends will be lesser and lesser. Then there is just the practical issue: we are part of a small but very closely-knit church, and I can't always guarantee that my son will not be around Thomas. This is just a practical issue.

On the other hand, my son needs someone like Thomas, who really cares for him and has been a good friend in the past. (My son is 15, Thomas is about 25 and has a business, having employed my son in the past.) My son is recovering from a psychosis and is definitely not the kid he used to be. Not everyone can be compassionate about my son's psychosis, and Thomas definitely can be. Losing him as a friend to our family would be a huge loss. 

So I either have to go along with her delusion (not good), and not allow contact, or go against it (also not good), with all the wrath that follows. I could split the difference, and say my son can't be around Thomas alone but otherwise it's ok, but then none of our children can either, and we have to somehow explain to my son why he can't be alone with Thomas. Also not really good.

Hmmm. We get put in the wildest positions with this stuff, now don't we?

Thanks in advance, any comments are appreciated.
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Re: Do we go along with the delusion (just a bit)?

by FrayedEndOfSanity » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:08 am

Mr. Sicily--
      Wow, you really are a "for better or for worse" kind of guy, aren't you? Kudos... Not an easy situation. Is divorce not an option because of your faith or the number of kids that you have? Or is it that you love your wife that much?

From what I understand, denying someone's delusions can lead someone to defend them. But God forbid that a delusion actually turns out to be reality. Then it's likely to really set in and cement itself. So you walk a fine line. If anything ever happens to your kids, I'd be very careful about addressing it with your wife. I'm definitely not saying cover it up, but try your damnedest to soften the blow--or she might cling to her delusions even more.

To be honest, I still experience transient ideations/mild delusions as part of BPD. They rarely last more than a week. I'm at the point that I *know* my thinking is delusional when I go down that path. Mostly because I'm very mindful of how I usually think, so any changes instantly ping my inner radar. Oddly, though, I have an innately good intuition, one that I've had to work hard to rebuild after abuse and brainwashing.

I gotta say, I'm rather worried about the intentions of a 25-year-old who wants to spend time with a mentally vulnerable 15-year-old. Delusions or not, my advice is that your kids only spend time with adults in public places. You might very well live in Paradise, USA, where adults are responsible mentors and no abuse occurs...but that's not the world I personally know.

I just got really triggered, so I'm going to wrap this up. Not your fault; I accidentally triggered myself, but if I continue, I'm probably going to say things about you that aren't true or helpful. I should be OK tomorrow, if you want to continue the conversation--although, to be honest, I don't know what else I'll be able to say.  

--Frayed

          Do not take my advice or anyone else's before talking to your doctor/counselor/other professional. Depending on where you live, you may be able to find free, confidential care. Most importantly, sometimes your shrink can be wrong. Get a second opinion.
If I don't respond to a thread and there's an issue--PM me.

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15. Denial

by MrSicily » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:48 pm

         Ok, I am not in a full-blown crisis yet, but I do need answers, as they help me to make sense of what I am seeing with my wife now. This forum is tremendously helpful in that regard.

Question: has anyone found that denial has anything to do with DD? My wife is in total, complete and utter denial about our son's psychosis, and along these lines, she has created an entire alternate reality of what happened, what caused it, what he has and how to get him better. Whereas some loved ones with DD accuse their husband or wife of infidelity, she accuses a good family friend of awful things that, she believes, caused my son's psychosis. None of it is true, and has been disproven about 15 times and in every way. The accusing is just one piece of the entire puzzle: she never believed that he had a psychosis nor that he needs to take medications; she discounts what the doctors say, interprets things according to her weird belief system, makes up evidence where there is none, and on and on it goes. We are going on nine months of this denial thing, so you would think that reality would at some point set in, but it hasn't. 

I ask the question: are we dealing with just a psychological thing or a brain thing, like DD? My son's many therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists, who have seen her in action, think probably both, but I haven't seen any mention of denial in this forum as related to DD. Has anyone seen this?

Thanks much. Your responses are always helpful!
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Re: Denial

by peytonmanning18 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:39 pm

           In the book I'm not Sick, I don't need Help there is a section on denial, more in the context of people with schizophrenia who don't believe there is anything wrong with them. 

The author constructs a fairly convincing argument that as you put it, it is more of a "brain thing" rather than a psychological thing. He believes these people aren't in denial for any psychological reason (which I think was the view that prevailed formerly) but that for whatever reason their illness makes it very difficult if not impossible for them to see what is wrong. 

From your description of your situation I could well believe that in your wife's case it is also a "brain thing" and is part of her apparent delusional symptoms.

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by MrSicily » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:59 pm

           Thanks, peytonmanning18. I actually saw an hour-long video by the author of I'm not Sick, I don't need Help, so I am familiar with the concept. He speaks about a denial of ones own mental illness, but I have a different type of denial going on here. It is a denial of a difficult circumstance, specifically, our son's psychosis -- something my wife cannot deal with on any level. Just today she was yelling at me that he doesn't need meds, and when he got radically worse when he had a med change -- thus showing that the meds had helped -- she somehow, in her twisted DD mind, negated all that and came up with a fanciful explanation of what had happened. Whatever. 

The root here seems to be denial; interesting isn't it? I find myself at a complete loss. Perhaps someone in this forum can help me make sense of it all.

Thanks,
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Re: Denial

by MrSicily » Sat May 01, 2010 6:53 pm

              Peytonmanning18, Thanks much for your post. It was very insightful and helpful as well. It really gives me something to think about. Interestingly, it seems like we have similar situations, where our wives are bound up in the lives of our children and have delusions thereof. We may have created a whole new subtype of DD!

You write:

 

peytonmanning18 wrote: In your case I think given that your wife and your son's conditions are so similar (delusions and psychosis, respectively) and that he is a minor and still lives with you I suspect whatever mechanism prevents her from seeing the reality of her own situation also prevents her from seeing the reality of HIS situation, and I'm prepared to believe that that mechanism is primarily organic in nature, not psychological.


Yes, I believe you are right. Interestingly, I remember years ago we knew a girl who was really schizophrenic, and at the time my wife refused to believe that this girl had this diagnosis. I remember it was always other people's fault that caused this girl's actions -- not the disease itself. Then one time my wife told me she didn't believe that there was such a thing as schizophrenia. The "worldly" doctors had just made this up. Hmmm. Another piece of the puzzle.

I find myself wanting a diagnosis, but probably in all likelihood time will tell. It is an important question: if it is a brain thing, then I just have to fasten my seatbelt, for it's going to be quite a ride! We shall see. I'm rambling. Thanks much for your response. I think you hit upon something with the above quote.
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Re: Denial

by Godhatesyou » Tue May 11, 2010 2:49 pm

MrSicily wrote: Ok, I am not in a full-blown crisis yet, but I do need answers, as they help me to make sense of what I am seeing with my wife now. This forum is tremendously helpful in that regard.

Question: has anyone found that denial has anything to do with DD? My wife is in total, complete and utter denial about our son's psychosis, and along these lines, she has created an entire alternate reality of what happened, what caused it, what he has and how to get him better. Whereas some loved ones with DD accuse their husband or wife of infidelity, she accuses a good family friend of awful things that, she believes, caused my son's psychosis. None of it is true, and has been disproven about 15 times and in every way. The accusing is just one piece of the entire puzzle: she never believed that he had a psychosis nor that he needs to take medications; she discounts what the doctors say, interprets things according to her weird belief system, makes up evidence where there is none, and on and on it goes. We are going on nine months of this denial thing, so you would think that reality would at some point set in, but it hasn't. 

I ask the question: are we dealing with just a psychological thing or a brain thing, like DD? My son's many therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists, who have seen her in action, think probably both, but I haven't seen any mention of denial in this forum as related to DD. Has anyone seen this?

Thanks much. Your responses are always helpful!
MrSicily


Re: Denial

             Like most women she sees her child as an extension of herself and thus any issues with the child is a reflection of her.
Her narcissism will ensure no progress is made.
You should take some responsibility and call her on it.

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Re: Denial

by peytonmanning18 » Tue May 11, 2010 4:09 pm

Godhatesyou wrote:...
You should take some responsibility and call her on it.


Leaving aside the blame implied from the first part of this sentence I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess from the second part that you've never dealt with an actual delusional person, have you?

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16. Zoloff

by MrSicily » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:10 pm

             My wife recently went to her doctor for a sinus infection and started talking to him about how she had it with her life. He then tried to convince her to take Zoloff for depression. I don't think she will do this but, who knows, maybe she will! 

Question: does Zoloff help in any way with DD? It would be great if it did. Unfortunately, after a wonderful two month reprise, we are back in it again, with all its ugliness.

Thanks
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Re: Zoloff

by manic666 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:13 pm

            I suspect you wife went to discuss her depressive mood //an the sinus was a cover//she would need all the time a doc has to tell him her probs//he obviously thinks she has depression or he would not of recommended zoloft// if she has she won’t get better without the meds, an zoloft is about the best for depression//i have had near on all ad,s an zoloft for me is the coolest//i don’t understand the DD bit was it that cryptic for//but i must tell you if she needs to go on a AD its not plain sailing at the start //there are side effects, an a dull sex life is one of them an a few more for a few weeks//so she may get worse before better, but she must hang in

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17. The sky is falling...

by MrSicily » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:48 am

         I now officially feel like I am living on the edge of a razor blade, and one false move and it's off to the abyss for me! Or, to use another analogy, I feel like I'm finding my way through a field of mines, and one false move and BOOM: we all get blown to bits!

My son, my dear son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia by one doctor, schitzoaffective by another, and is now in a state mental institution, having had suicidal thoughts and also to see if he could get off the meds. Ah, the meds! He has been on six meds and none have worked. A real roller-coaster. Talk to me about schizophrenia! I know.

Then there is my dear wife, whom I love, but also has all the traits of DD. She does not believe my son is even sick, nor does he need meds, and we have all created this problem for him -- "we" being the psychiatrists, therapists and ME. Talking to her about anything resembling reality is like talking to the cat. The gods could not convince her, and everything is twisted beyond belief. Our son says he can do miracles? Sure, he's converted, maybe he can! Hearing voices? That's caused by the meds. Hey, he got worse after getting off Zyprexa! No, and here she is able to -- I don't know how -- to get around the truth. It's really amazing. 

If it was just a simple case of denial, that would be fine. But there is a real thought disorder here. Everything is warped. She told a friend that the chemo I got affected my teeth. Sorry, untrue. That I wasn't healthy when we got married because he friend suggested I use a herbal tonic. Nope, I've always been healthy (right up until I got cancer.) In general, I've noticed this: she warps reality according to her belief system, and warps it to the point of being not even intelligible.

We have to decide on my son's treatment together, and I haven't figured out how to do this without having her go up like Chinese rockets. We have to talk about it but we cannot talk about it. I don't want to spark her rants, but I'm not sure how I can avoid it either. It's a very interesting situation to be in. Dealing with someone who is delusional is certainly interesting.

The only thing that gets me by is my faith in God. She was good for so long, but then it came back, as it always does, and fiercer than ever. I fear it is destroying our relationship, and would like to stay married for the sake of the kids, if we can. May be a pipe dream, but we shall see.

Any thoughts?
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Re: The sky is falling...

by peytonmanning18 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:20 pm

           I have a similar issue, although the situation is much less serious for me. But my 10 year old son has a physical condition that requires accommodation at school. Dealing with the school can be a delicate situation...they are required by law to comply but at the same time all these accommodations have costs associated with them, and budgets are flat at best. 

So when my soon-to-be-ex wife, who has appointed herself the world expert on all things related to my son's disability, starts complaining about how the teachers, administrators, and support staff are all plotting against her, and how they are in cahoots with people at my son's old school, well it gets interesting. 

It can be extremely difficult for her and I to even agree on what he needs, and this could very well be the case under any circumstances. My son's situation is complicated, and there is no clear-cut road map on how to proceed. But her default mode of suspicion of anyone and everyone at the school doesn't make things easier.

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Re: The sky is falling...

by MrSicily » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:59 am

peytonmanning18,
               Thanks for your post. I don't believe that I have found someone with a similar situation. It is very clear now that my wife is very, very sick, and she seems to be getting more and more consumed by her delusion. I and "they" have all created this situation for my son, and she is angry and troubled about it. It's really very scary, and I feel helpless in it all, except to take the opportunity to be good to her, where there is that opportunity. I am trying to keep the lines of communication open with her on everything else besides her delusion, so like we can have a relationship of some sort, but she more and more keeps bringing up the delusion, which makes life, well, tight.

Are you divorced? Was your marriage able to withstand this? In my case, I am in doubt about the long-term success of my marriage. I am part of the grand conspiracy because I think my son is sick and needs treatment, and she is angry with me for this. If my son doesn't get better, then I'm not sure if she can psychologically remain stable and balanced. The latest med for my son doesn't seem to be working, but we shall see.

I'm rambling. It's late. God puts us into some interesting situations, now doesn't he? Dealing with one mentally sick person is a lot; two is monumental. But so far God has got me through it, and I just hope everything lands in a good place for the sake of my kids -- and of course myself as well, plus that of my wife. Much now is in motion, so we shall see.
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Re: The sky is falling...

by peytonmanning18 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:05 pm

MrSicily wrote:...
Are you divorced? Was your marriage able to withstand this? In my case, I am in doubt about the long-term success of my marriage. I am part of the grand conspiracy because I think my son is sick and needs treatment, and she is angry with me for this. If my son doesn't get better, then I'm not sure if she can psychologically remain stable and balanced. The latest med for my son doesn't seem to be working, but we shall see.

I'm rambling. It's late. God puts us into some interesting situations, now doesn't he? Dealing with one mentally sick person is a lot; two is monumental. But so far God has got me through it, and I just hope everything lands in a good place for the sake of my kids -- and of course myself as well, plus that of my wife. Much now is in motion, so we shall see.

MrSicily


Sadly our divorce has been granted and we are now in a state-mandated 90 day waiting period until it becomes final, this will happen soon after New Years. I tried for several years to try to maintain our marriage but in the end it proved impossible for me. Perhaps a stronger person could have done it, but I was tired of the seething hatred and baseless accusations I was the target of, from the very person I was trying to help. 

Our situations are different in several ways though, from what I can tell. My wife seemed to experience delusions several months on, then several months off. As of this writing she has seemed to be mostly delusion free for over a year without any medication or treatment that I am aware of (I moved out of the house over a year ago, although I live very close by and see our son almost every day). Her personality is still colored though by a general suspicion and mistrust of virtually everyone and everything (except our son). 

Another difference is she has never denied the essential fact of our son's disability, although she has disagreed with various experts about the best way to deal with it...some of her ideas have been unconventional, to say the least. 

The last few years of my life have certainly been far more interesting than I ever thought they would.

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18. Rewriting History...

by MrSicily » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:03 pm

           Has anyone seen their DD spouse rewrite history, like overwriting a cassette tape with new content so the old is gone?

I've seen this a few times with my wife, and it just happened at lunchtime today. For instance, we have always joked that I was the healthy one and she the sickly one in our marriage; at times this was downright comical. Then I got cancer three years ago, and, of course, everything changed but even now I think I'm healthier on a day to day basis than her. But -- and here's the but -- but she recently told me that I was sickly when we got married because I didn't accept a herbal medication her friend offered me, and I was always sickly. She even went so far to say that my cancer was due to this -- my refusal to take this herbal medication. What?

We saw it again recently on another subject. I'll spare you the details, but she has no recollection about how she had it just before we got married in a certain area. Over the years we have spoken quite a bit about this situation; we've always had a common understanding about it. But she recently said she had no memory of it. Again: what?

Besides this, my life is in general falling apart. My son is very schizophrenic and involved and probably should be hospitalized; my wife is in denial; a great crime has been committed against him -- she thinks. I thank the Lord I have an anchor in him! Otherwise I think I'd run down the street naked, my arms flailing in the air, and yelling, "I can't take this anymore!" Thankfully, I'm learning to have rest in the midst of it all -- quite a feat, isn't it?
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Re: Rewriting History...

by peytonmanning18 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:56 pm

            Yes, it is quite a feat! Sorry things are so rough for you right now. I don't know what I would do if my son started manifesting schizophrenic/delusional symptoms. I try not to think about the genetic component in these things...

My ex did have a way of re-writing history in a way similar to what you describe, but only when she was really in thrall to the apparent delusions. I can't think of any specific examples right now but she would claim to remember minor incidents from years and even decades earlier and attach momentous importance to them (sort of like your wife and the herbal remedy thing). More often she claims to remember things that happened or places we went that I don't. 

Now I admit I don't have the best memory in the world but some of the things she claims to remember are so detailed and specific and attached to a particular time and place that I really have to wonder if she is just thinking she remembers them. 

A recent example: she has been looking at houses to move into. One house she looked at she claimed we looked at 15 years ago before we bought the house we just sold. Now we looked at many houses and condos in our area before we bought the one we did, and I could take you to probably about a dozen of them without even having to think too hard about it, but I don't at all remember seeing the one she is talking about. Furthermore she insists I slipped and fell down when we saw it. Uh...sure...I must have hit my head because I don't remember any of that. I pretty sure footed and haven't slipped and fallen down in a long time.

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Re: Rewriting History...

by faithful » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:10 pm

            My DDJ ex rewrites history all the time. Also in great detail, details no one could remember 40 or 50 or 60 years after the fact. He recently decided his life was so interesting he would write his memoirs, which I was able to read. I could have gone through it line by line - "this did not happen, that did not happen." But it is truly what he "remembers." Ultimately the only people from his past he has any contact with are family, because no one else can handle him remembering situations that they know never happened. Family just smiles and nods, leading him to believe that they agree with him, when actually they just all understand that there is no use in pressing the point.

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Re: Rewriting History...

by sabbles1 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:30 pm

              My DDG rewrites history as well. He will recall a story or event that he had a conversation about, but insists he received the information from God in a vision. For instance, he once told my brother that God had given him information about a particular event that happened in his life, and even though we all told him it was an event that we had discussed more than once in a conversation, he insisted that it was revealed to him in a vision. He usually attributes significance and meaning to events that just make no sense, but he believes it. He has alienated his family and his kids, and the only people who can have a conversation with him, are people he meets on the internet with very radical religious views, and they buy into all of his delusions about his special mission from God.

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Re: Rewriting History...

by kent_eh » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:22 pm

            Yes, my wife did this too.
She "remembers" a lot of things that didn't happen. Conversations that she didn't really have. Crimes that weren't really committed (against her and others).
She remembers her being the one to always back down to prevent a fight between us. When I mentioned that to a common friend the response was "That's not the M... that I ever knew. She'd never back down from a fight".

False memories are false beliefs, and seem to fit the definition of delusion. 

Now that my wife is on an anti-psychotic and anti-depressant that is a better fit, she seems to have stopped creating new beliefs and "memories", but she still remembers the old ones. Fortunately, as time goes on (and it' not been that long yet) she seems to be concerning herself less with the things she was thinking about over the last 2 years, and is taking )at least some) of the advice she is getting from the doc/nurse/councilors. At least some of it.

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Re: Rewriting History...

by Bri » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:54 pm

           This is just my opinion and what I have observed in my DDJ. It doesn't mean every false memory comes about in this way. 

The DDJ's NEED to be right about their delusion begins a process of changing all surrounding facts to FIT the delusion. Normal people take an event, use the facts to ELIMINATE the impossible or improbable, then look at what's left and try to make sense of that. The DD does just the opposite. They stand firmly on the delusion and try to force all facts to fit around it, often changing them if necessary. Of course, once they've changed the facts to fit the delusion, they can believe they are right. They begin to retell the "new" version of events and, in a short time, it becomes fact for them (though it is far from the truth). I think it's much easier for them to change fact and be "right" than look at the alternative - they have a mental illness. No one wants to believe that, so they continue to change truth to avoid facing their condition, thereby creating "false memories".

At the feast of ego, everybody leaves hungry...

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Re: Rewriting History...

by desperatewife » Fri May 06, 2011 5:15 pm

               I can't believe how similar everyone's stories are!!! 

My husband's DD started exactly like that, with small incidences of "rewriting history." I even called him out on it, by saying things like "hey, that didn't happen" or "I/you/he never said that." It was no use. He was repeating and repeating the same incidents from the past for weeks, like an obsessed broken record. Over time he kept adding more and more detail, and I kept pointing out that no one could possibly remember word-for-word entire conversations from almost ten years ago. I would point out "You just added that from yesterday when you last told me this story" and he would say no he didn't. No matter how many times I pointed it out, it was no use. He didn't see it and denied it. This was in the early stages of his mind going, before I even knew anything was wrong. I just thought he was obsessing so much that he was creating conversations or something. Eventually I realized they were becoming delusions and that he was truly mentally ill, at which point I completely had a breakdown and started having panic attacks myself. It was awful.

I think Bri hit the nail on the head above. The delusions were appearing and then rather than face the reality that something is wrong and they may be mentally ill, they next start by rearranging facts in their mind. These then become the false memories that plague them and everyone around them. It's horrible to be the center of these jealous fake memories. We've even had contact with other people who were around back then, who have no idea what he's talking about and he just says they are all lying. I remain the evil whore who did all these disgusting things and now he hates me for it....my children have heard it all, our friends have heard it all....false memories and rewriting history can kiss my butt. Sorry, but I'm just angry still. 

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19. Lest I become as delusional as she is...

by MrSicily » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:18 am

         I have a question that I don't think I've seen addressed on this forum. It's a bit odd in one way, but I was wondering if anyone has had it like me.

Basically, my wife is what I would call quite delusional at times, and she is always certain of her delusion, 100 %, without any doubts. She really believes, for instance, that we have "created this whole mess" with our son, who has schizophrenia, and the psychiatrists have victimized our son, and the medications have caused the voices, and on and on it goes. Nothing I say can change her and, if I present a truth to her, she always, always, find a way around it, sometimes quite ridiculously.

Anyway, even though I know that all this is preposterous, as he's been diagnosed by seven psychiatrists, and has all the symptoms, I find that I can be influenced by her, and I don't want to be. So in my thoughts I have to catch myself: "No, that's not right. It's crazy." When you live with someone like this, day in and day out, you can be worn down, I see. Also, my situation may be different than some others, just because something in me would like to believe that we could solve my son's entire problems just by getting him off the meds (which would be a disaster and also a safety threat). I desperately want him to be well, so this plays into it.

I am seeing a therapist, and he agreed: a spouse can be influenced by the other partner with DD. He said that for my own sake I have to lay my truth down next to hers in a non-confrontational way, and I have been trying this. This is for my own sake, not hers: nothing will change her mind, if you know what I mean, but it may help to keep me sane.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Lest I become as delusional as she is...

by kent_eh » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:58 pm

MrSicily wrote: Basically, my wife is what I would call quite delusional at times, and she is always certain of her delusion, 100 %, without any doubts.


That's an important part of the diagnosis of Delusion. They believe what they believe no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented.

 

MrSicily wrote: I find that I can be influenced by her, and I don't want to be. So in my thoughts I have to catch myself: "No, that's not right. It's crazy." When you live with someone like this, day in and day out, you can be worn down, I see.


You love her. For as long as you have been married, you trusted her. Now that has been turned on it's head, and you can't trust everything she says. But which things do you believe, and which are pure delusion? 

You have to trust yourself. 
Listen to those little "that can't be right" thoughts in the back of your head. 

 

MrSicily wrote: I am seeing a therapist, and he agreed: a spouse can be influenced by the other partner with DD. He said that for my own sake I have to lay my truth down next to hers in a non-confrontational way, and I have been trying this. This is for my own sake, not hers: nothing will change her mind, if you know what I mean, but it may help to keep me sane.
MrSicily


Hmmm.. Everything I was told by therapists, psychiatrists and psyc nurses is that it's pointless to debate the truth or reality of a delusional person's beliefs. She may decide you can't be trusted, if you dig in your heels every time she opens her mouth.
They will believe what they believe until the right meds are given and start to go their work.

For instance, my wife was convinced (among other things) that recycling was against God's wishes, and that everyone who recycled was going to burn in hell. "but every church we have been in has a recycling box" says I. "They're all wrong. I know what God wants, and they are all wrong".
How do you argue against that? There's no point. Save your strength. ("the only winning move is to not play the game")

Make note of the most bizarre and persistent delusions, let her psychiatrist know what's going on. 
Keep trying to get her to accept help. Try different angles. See if people she trusts can help.

Keep seeing a therapist for your own health. Look after yourself.
As hard as it is to accept, fixing brains is not something most of us are capable of doing. 
Do what you can to minimize damage to yourself and your loved ones (including your wife.) 
She may tell people things that will cause them anxiety. (My wife did. I spent a fair bit of time quietly "following in her wake" trying to explain what's going on, and assuring friends that I didn't believe my wife's accusations)

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20. Martyr Syndrome

by MrSicily » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:48 am

            I came across this today while doing a google search, and I consider it now essential reading for anyone in our situation: The Martyr Syndrome in Marriages with Mental Illness. Something to really think about and digest. 

Here is the link for all who are interested:

http://heatherwhistler.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/the-martyr-syndrome-in-marriages-with-mental-illness/

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21. I was a fool to think...

by MrSicily » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:28 am

          ...that it had gone!

How many times have I learned that it -- the delusion -- will never leave. It may go underground for a time, it may not be seen, but it is always lurking, just below the surface, and it comes out at the most unexpected time. ("What did you say?")

But this time I had hoped that it would be gone forever. My dear wife wanted to meet the person who, she believes, perpetrated a bad act with my son. (This has been disproven about 15 times, several times by my son's own words.) I went back and forth with this, finally agreeing to let her meet with him. She got it out and, I think, felt bad about it and even apologized to him for having bad thoughts about him. It was great.

So I was hopeful that perhaps all this was just an example of someone cracking under great pressure (I had cancer 4 years ago and was close to death, and my son developed schizophrenia); that it was a psychological condition -- not an organic one; one that could be helped with therapy and less stress: less stress allowing her to get her bearings again. It was nice to have hope. Hope is good.

But then two weeks ago, she suddenly said, "And no one has ever explained what was in the brown paper bag." No, no one has, because there is nothing to explain. My son had a brown paper bag, which he said contained food. This was not enough for her inquiring mind. What was in the brown paper bag?

So it was back. We are dealing with a severe mental illness, I now believe. Organic in nature. It is out of reality and will stay so; without meds, I don't think it will ever leave and, with meds, the odds are against it.

But we can live with it. She did say, "Does it matter?" Not really -- it is DDF -- Delusional Disorder Friend -- not DDJJ. It is the same stuff, only directed at a family friend and not me, which I am thankful for. So it is stuffed down there and buried and, hopefully, it does not matter. But the day that it does matter, I will be in big trouble. May God help me!
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Re: I was a fool to think...

by jasmin » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:17 pm

             Hi MrSicily! Could she get professional help and meds if things start getting worse? This must be very stressful for you, but I think you'll find a way to deal with everything.

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I am sorry I am not on the forum as much as I used to be, if I do not reply to you quickly, please contact another moderator/supermod/admin as well.

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22. In Defense of the DD Spouse

by MrSicily » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:52 am

           I have thought much about this. What defense could there possibly be? They are crazy, and it’s even crazier to live with them and anything that is right side up in ones life is turned upside down, so it’s like you’re walking on the ceiling all the time, or falling through space with no parachute, or worse.

I found myself today thinking to myself, “My dear wife, she’s so crazy – totally crazy, way out, just nuts.” But then I stopped and caught myself. No, that’s not the way to think about all this. I said to myself, “No, the illness she has is making her crazy.” And in the last two weeks I have worked with this concept: it is the illness that is the problem, not my dear spouse. 

They are sick - very sick. And when the say the nuttiest things, it is not them speaking, but the illness. This is hard to grasp. At some point, they end, and the illness takes over. It is not always clear where that line is, but it is there somewhere. At some point they are really not responsible for what they say or do; the illness is.

This has helped me in that, despite all that I see, I can still have mercy on my wife. She is a victim of her illness, just as I was a victim of cancer four years ago. She is suffering, just like I did, but in a different way. And everyone with DD suffers. Perhaps it is the worse suffering, because DD takes away any insight that they are even sick at all, and thus they are cut off from any treatment that could help them. Truly, it is a horrible illness.

It has helped me to hate the illness and not hate my wife. I can feel very sorry for her. And it profoundly affects me as well. I learned that with cancer: I had it, but my wife felt it every bit as much as I did. So they have DD, but my life is affected in a way as profoundly as if I had DD. The caregivers suffer as much as those who are cared for. That’s the truth.

That the illness is speaking: that is something I have to fight for, to continue to believe, and to remind myself of. I believe it is the truth. We DD spouses can end up hating them, and that is not right. It is not healthy for us, if nothing else. We are all victims. It’s like cancer, but worse. May God help us through it?
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Re: In Defense of the DD Spouse

by D13 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:42 am

             Hi, thank you for replying my other post, and thank you for replying some of my questions.

I think it's amazing how you can keep in mind that your wife is sick and not hating her, a lot of time I couldn't help myself but hate my mom because of her crazy DD behavior, my dad sometimes yelled "Ugh! I hate her!" too, cause we feel like a person can control his/her brain and mind, right? So why can't my mom control hers? Cause it's not like a person with cancer, they can't control what's going on with he/her body. Brain and mind is something that people can control themselves, or maybe a person with DD can't control his/her brain and mind at all?! I've read some post and it seems to be like it.

Best wishes to you and your family.

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Re: In Defense of the DD Spouse

by calico » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:48 am

             This is a strong attitude to have, as long as you still have reasonable hope that she can get better. However, when it becomes fairly clear to you that the situation is hopeless, imho I feel that you need to relinquish this attitude, because it is what will keep you in a horrible situation forever. It will drive you insane as well. Just my two cents. If you have to leave, it’s ok to hate your spouse for as long as you need to (but don't let it consume you... "severely dislike" would be a better word than "hate"). She has made your life hell. You are not a saint, no one expects you to be.

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Re: In Defense of the DD Spouse

by MrSicily » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:47 am

          Thanks, Calico, for the post. Something to think about. 

 

calico wrote: This is a a strong attitude to have, as long as you still have reasonable hope that she can get better. However, when it becomes fairly clear to you that the situation is hopeless, imho I feel that you need to relinquish this attitude, because it is what will keep you in a horrible situation forever.


I guess I was thinking that this way of looking at the situation would not necessarily make it any more difficult to leave than if I had thought otherwise. If the situation is hopeless, then it is hopeless because the illness has made it so, and I can still move on, but without the debilitating effects of blaming and hatred.

 

calico wrote: It will drive you insane as well.


I agree: staying when you should leave will drive you insane, but so will blaming and hating your spouse. It eats you up, and is not good for yourself, whether you stay or leave.

 

calico wrote: She has made your life hell.


I guess that's the point of the post. She has not made my life hell; her illness has. She is a wonderful person in every way who just happens to be just very, very sick. I can hate the illness. She is a victim.

It is the same with my son who has schizophrenia: he has done some wild things, but it was never him who did it. He thought he was Jesus; he went down the street, crawled up on a low roof of a house and talked to a cat. That was not my son who did that. It was his illness. It is the exact same thing with my wife. It's not her. Not. It is her illness that is speaking.

Living with a son who has schizophrenia gives a perspective on all this that others may not have. In the same way I would not blame my son for his schizophrenia -- never -- I should not blame my wife for her DD. With my son, blaming him surely doesn't make any sense, as this is truly a medical issue, though of the brain. DD is trickier for some reason. Why is that? With schizophrenia, it's obvious that they are just way gone -- out in the stratosphere. They're not in this reality at all; they don't inhabit the same realm as we do when they are psychotic. With DD, it seems like it's them because enough of them is left to function in society (at least with many) but they have this crazy stuff going on on the side, so are they crazy or not? Is it them or not? It gets all very confusing, and so easy to blame them. Where they end and where the illness begins is not always easy to gauge. But, from everything that I've understood, DD is a form of schizophrenia. Always keep this in mind. When you get up in the middle of the night to go pee, say to yourself, "DD is a form of schizophrenia," and when you sit in traffic, say the same again. 

Many times I've thought it would be much easier if my wife was just 100 percent schizophrenic like my son. With my son, it's easy: he's either completely psychotic or somewhere on the continuum of normalcy - sometimes less, sometimes more, but at least he is what he is. (He is on medication, which has made all the difference.) With my wife, she can be crazy one hour and normal the next -- very normal. Makes my head spin. In some ways, I still can't get my head around it: how can she be so normal with friends and so nutty with me? It really makes the situation so much more difficult. 

Just these thoughts. All of this is a challenge. It is a challenge to live with a DD spouse, and it's a challenge to not hate (or dislike). It's not a matter, I don't think, of being a saint; it's more a matter of preserving my mental health in the midst of a very, very difficult situation. 
MrSicily

 

 

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23. Is it DD?

by MrSicily » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:43 am

         Hello, I'm just a bit confused, but that's normal for me these days!

I have long wondered if my wife has DD. The thing is, when I read these posts -- and sometimes I go back to posts from years ago, just to see what I can find -- I see my wife. Her condition waxes and wanes, but there is always a psychotic\delusional aspect to it. Unfortunately, I fit in to this DD forum quite well and feel quite at home here.

My wife was badly sexually abused as a child, and she has never dealt with any of this -- is quite resistant to any suggestions that she face her past. Just won't. I recently saw a therapist who is an expert on sexual abuse, and it was enlightening. She was able to interpret my wife's behavior in light of her repression and denial of what happened as a child. All of her behaviors, she said, can be traced back to this.

But several months ago, I talked to another therapist about my wife, and this therapist also dealt extensively with sexual abuse. (Long story how all this worked out - two therapists who are experts in this vein.) When I described everything I saw in my wife, and the therapist said plainly, "Much of what you are seeing isn't related to her sexual abuse. There must be a psychotic component to it." She also explained that something like 25 percent of woman are sexually abused, and they do not show symptoms as severe as my wife.

I'm not sure where this leaves me. I'm just thinking that if it has all the symptoms of DD, it's DD. If it looks like an elephant and smells like one, it probably is one. It could be a hippopotamus, but unlikely. On the other hand, in the physical, symptoms can be the same for many different underlying causes. A pain in the gut can be caused by a burst appendix, gas etc. Pain in the gut is not a diagnosis.

Does any of this make a difference? I think it does. If it's related to her sexual abuse, then perhaps someday she can face it, get help, and be healed. But if her behavior has a psychotic component to it, then she will never get better, it being an organic brain disease.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

As a side issue, I have always tried to arrive at a diagnosis and then, from this, follow a line forward in dealing with my wife. Make sense? If DD, then don't challenge the delusion - no use in doing that. If not, perhaps I can get through. Interestingly, I talked to my therapist [a third therapist who I've seen for years] recently who put this entire line of thought on its head. He told me to not worry about the diagnosis, especially since we have children involved. "You just do what you think is right for the kids - no matter how she reacts. She's delusional. No matter what, you can't let her carry the day." He approached the problem from the opposite end. Who cares what it is - just do what's right for yourself and the children. 

Sure makes life interesting, doesn't it?
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Re: Is it DD?

by sanmom3 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:47 am

         I agree with your therapist that you must do what you think is right for the kids. If someone is mentally ill and behaving erratically, or in a frightening way, I believe that same person, should they get better later, would not have wanted to inflict such turmoil on their child. I would hope that a rational person could look back on a time of their psychosis and be glad that someone prevented their child from being harmed psychologically or physically. They probably wouldn't see it that way during a mentally ill time, though.

My mom has DD, however the hospital called it psychosis with a couple probable causes, one of them being DD. And, my mom was not sexually abused, but the mind is so complicated that your wife's mental illness may or may not be related at all to her childhood trauma.

Getting to a place of calm for yourself is important for your kids, and your wife may or may not ever follow your path. Our family was forced to realize that my mom is not ever going to stop believing her jealous and persecutory delusions. But, we were able to create her own living arrangements, get her mental help, and we are working on maintaining a different kind of relationship. So many topics are avoided in our conversations with her. It's not what she wants, because she wants us all to 'believe' her. So we can't feel the same about her, but we still are helpful, and spend time, though limited. We've come to a better place of peace.

With kids in the picture, I'd make sure you write down the progression of what you've witnessed over the years, with dates and descriptions, and professionals you've spoken with, and keep doing that. If you need to someday have legal help in custody or if her relatives need help much later with guardianship (if she worsens and can't make decisions or function for herself), then the timeline of events will be helpful. I've got that for my mom, and have consulted with an attorney in preparation for the future. But the timeline was also helpful when I wrote to her physician and started the process to get her mental help.

Hope that's helpful.

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24. How to raise children with a DD spouse?

by MrSicily » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:05 am

          Any ideas?
  MrSicily

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Re: How to raise children with a DD spouse?

by MrSicily » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:53 am

            Has no one been through this? I have eight kids and a wife who is so sick, there are not words in the English language to describe it. I have a 19 year old son who has been VERY sick with schizophrenia, but fortunately he is getting better.

WE HAVE EIGHT KIDS ON THE LINE. CAN ANYONE POST ANYTHING TO HELP ME!

Our neighbor just broke into our house and put clothes everywhere, and that's why we find new clothes for the kids here and there. Oh yes, my one son who works - he has to be careful not to put his water bottle someplace not safe, as someone may put poison in it. And of course my son never had schizophrenia - it's all a conspiracy by me and the doctors. This is the type of thing we live in - both me and my children.

ANY THOUGHTS OR HELP?
MrSicily

-- Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:54 pm --

Has no one been through this? I have eight kids and a wife who is so sick, there are not words in the English language to describe it. I have a 19 year old son who has been VERY sick with schizophrenia, but fortunately he is getting better.

WE HAVE EIGHT KIDS ON THE LINE. CAN ANYONE POST ANYTHING TO HELP ME!

Our neighbor just broke into our house and put clothes everywhere, and that's why we find new clothes for the kids here and there. Oh yes, my one son who works - he has to be careful not to put his water bottle someplace not safe, as someone may put poison in it. And of course my son never had schizophrenia - it's all a conspiracy by me and the doctors. This is the type of thing we live in - both me and my children.

ANY THOUGHTS OR HELP?
MrSicily

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Re: How to raise children with a DD spouse?

by sanmom3 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:06 pm

              Getting help will likely take much time and effort, and will also likely be very worthwhile.

Keep trying. Some professionals may think they can help, and may try, and some professionals will know the best way. Keep trying to find the professionals who know DD. Keep documenting what goes on so you can accurately describe the situation.

In my community (a large city), there are adult services, child services, school counselors, psychiatric hospital areas, crisis hotlines, and even police who help by providing community contact info. Try these resources and if one place can't help, ask the representative for ideas of where to turn. Ask friends and relatives for ideas. 

The crisis hotline handles everything, and the person there put me in contact with an organization that could arrange a specialist to make an in-home evaluation. I had no idea that was possible, and I had already consulted a psychiatrist, a physician and an elder-care specialist. All those people were helpful and provided some help and information, but still there was a resource they didn't know about. The lesson is to keep looking, don't stop, and talk to everyone. Sometimes we don't even know what is possible.

I know about the negativity and anger that goes along with some types of DD, and I wouldn't want my kids around that at all. I was open with my kids about the brain malfunctioning for their grandma (my mom), and my intentions about them not being alone with her. I also was clear with myself that my main job is to raise them in the best way I can, and that meant limiting time with my mom because she made it difficult for me to maintain my own sense of calm and wellbeing. That would be more difficult with a spouse, but I did help my mom and her now-ex-husband through the divorce that resulted from the DD and I am so relieved that her now-ex-husband does not have to live with the intense stress of her brain illness anymore.

Your main job, in my opinion, is to protect the kids. It may mean that your wife needs to live elsewhere. You don't want to look back, when your kids are grown, and wish you had done more or tried harder to create a healthy environment for them. 

Good luck to you with the tough road ahead.

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Re: How to raise children with a DD spouse?

by amazeded » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:41 am

            I'm not a parent but I guess it would be important to mention to your kids that "Mommy's sick in her mind and that she sometimes says things that don't make sense but she does know that one thing is true for sure, and that is that she loves you." 

and also, because she's a little crazy, I would say that it's important for you to just lower your expectations on the amount of work she'll be capable of doing now. It'll save you from a lot of strife and frustration and hurt to just accept it at the beginning.

Just try and be understanding as much as you can- do what you think s right of course but that's a given.

I'm sorry that you have to now carry on all this weight. Stay strong and use your best judgement.

Dx: Psychosis

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Re: How to raise children with a DD spouse?

by monkeybusiness » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:20 pm

          I don’t want my kids mental health at risk from growing up with a mentally ill parent so I am contemplating leaving their father so that kids see their father on weekends only instead of living with him full time with me cos I have read so many cases now of kids and teenagers developing a mental illness and I can understand how when I see my daughter growing up around her father when he’s flipping out calling me all sorts of horrible names telling me how much of a slut I am and telling our daughter how much of a slut and bad parent her mother is. Telling our daughter lies that are true in his head that is far to complicated for children to understand. I don’t believe there is a right way of raising children around a dd spouse but I do somehow think that limiting the children’s exposure to the parent for the sake of the mental wellbeing of the children is a possible n positive thing to do. At least its not taking the parent away fully from the children and its not allowing the children to feel trapped in the kind of environment that dd sufferers create around them which seems to be negative and depressing in my experience with my dd spouse. Good luck to you and your 8 kids you’re a very strong person coming on here asking for help I hope you find the help n answers your looking for

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